What we collect!
Stamporama Discussion Board Logo
For People Who Love To Talk About Stamps


92 visitors online

United States/Stamps : Re-numbering of Liberty Series

AuthorPostings
seanpashby
Members Picture
19 Mar 2015
01:10:57pm
I am sure that all you collectors of US are now aware that Scott has changed the catalog numbers for the Liberty series once again. I hope this is the last time........
Like
Login to Like
this post
BobbyBarnhart
Members Picture
They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
19 Mar 2015
01:15:26pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

Sean, could you please let me know which numbers have been changed, and what they are now?

Like
Login to Like
this post

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke"

www.bobbybarnhart.net
seanpashby
Members Picture
19 Mar 2015
11:55:45pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

All the liberty series issues that had wet/dry printings have been re-arranged into correct chronological order. The major numbers are the same, but subcategory letters are all changed. Used to be...1030 was 1/2 cent dry print and 1030a was wet print. 2015 lists them as the opposite. The coil subcategories are really changed.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
khj
Members Picture
20 Mar 2015
11:12:47am
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

Thanks for pointing this out Sean! Scott does have a list of the number changes on page 92A of the US Specialized, and page 1542 in the Volume 1.

That being said, I wish Scott would just leave "bad enough" alone. To me, there is nothing more annoying than major changes in catalog numbering. It does nothing more than cause confusion to dealers/collectors using different Scott catalog editions. I doubt anybody will actually redo their album pages because of this, but for those trying to fill out some empty spaces, this major renumbering may cause a few headaches and maybe even a few wrong purchases.

It's not just the wet/dry catalog numbers that have been changed. Some of the minor catalog numbers for errors and booklet panes have also been changed. Even though there were only a few changes in the postage dues, there are still changes that have to be noticed. This will only cause more confusion when we try to answer Liberty Series and postage due ID questions on the board.

I guess I should be grateful they didn't renumber the Canal Zone wet/dry printings.

Is it really that important that things are in perfect chronological order? Am I expected to also get a new Durland since those catalog numbers will also be wrong now?

While I'm glad they asked the USSS, if they bothered to ask the rest of us (that far outnumber the USSS membership), I'm guessing that most of us would say "leave it alone".

JMHO.

At Wits End k

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
seanpashby
Members Picture
20 Mar 2015
12:02:31pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

I totally agree Kim. Now all my lists, databases, and yes, album pages are wrong. I will not re-do the album pages yet, but eventually my perfectionist nature will get the better of me.

Like
Login to Like
this post
DouglasGPerry
Members Picture
APS Member #196859
20 Mar 2015
12:14:39pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

"Is it really that important that things are in perfect chronological order?"

In fact, many Scott listings are not in chronological order and never have been. US Scott C1-C3, the early US airmail stamps, come to mind.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"All hobbies are absurd to those on the outside, and a joy to those within."
Anglophile
Members Picture
RPSL, APS, EPA; US, GB, Ireland, British Europe, Italy, Mauritius Classics
20 Mar 2015
12:20:02pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

I agree with you all. One thing I will do in the interim, though, is punch a copy of this notice into my album, adjacent the start of the Liberty series, as a reminder.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"If this message contained legal advice, it would be followed by a bill."
cdj1122
Members Picture
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
20 Mar 2015
09:04:13pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

I got as far as ;
" ... The result was sometimes confusing to collectors, even if all the Scott "rules" had been followed ...."
at which point my Holmesian (¹) sense of uncontrolled jocularity kicked in and my ample abdomen shook out of control.


I WROTE some lines once on a time
In wondrous merry mood,
And thought, as usual, men would say
They were exceeding good.

They were so queer, so very queer,
I laughed as I would die;
Albeit, in the general way,
A sober man am I.

I called my servant, and he came;
How kind it was of him
To mind a slender man like me,
He of the mighty limb.

"These to the printer," I exclaimed,
And, in my humorous way,
I added, (as a trifling jest,)
"There'll be the devil to pay."

He took the paper, and I watched,
And saw him peep within;
At the first line he read, his face
Was all upon the grin.

He read the next; the grin grew broad,
And shot from ear to ear;
He read the third; a chuckling noise
I now began to hear.

The fourth; he broke into a roar;
The fifth; his waistband split;
The sixth; he burst five buttons off,
And tumbled in a fit.

Ten days and nights, with sleepless eye,
I watched that wretched man,
And since, I never dare to write
As funny as I can.

(¹) Holmesian, Oliver Wendall, of course.

Like 
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
seanpashby
Members Picture
21 Mar 2015
11:26:25am
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

I have removed the images of the two pages from the 2015 Scott US specialized that I posted because it was pointed out that it might get me in hot water with Amos Publishing. Sorry.

Like
Login to Like
this post
BobbyBarnhart
Members Picture
They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
21 Mar 2015
12:36:34pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

It was at my suggestion that Sean removed his images. Amos Publishing (Scott Catalogs, Linn's Stamp News, et al) zealously pursues copyright infringement, even if innocently done. If you suspect or have the slightest reason to believe that an image, article or other intellectual property is subject to copyright protection, please pass it by me, lisagrant87, or auldstampguy before posting same unless you have written permission of the copyright holder.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke"

www.bobbybarnhart.net
larsdog
Members Picture
APS #220693 ATA#57179
21 Mar 2015
06:01:13pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

I wish they would have left them alone UNLESS they were going to elevate them to major status (which I think they should have long ago). They were printed on different presses using different processes, so they deserve major status as much or more than many 19th Century varieties that have major status. It SHOULD be 1030 wet print and 1030A dry print. Until they are willing to elevate them to major status for both, leave the numbering alone!

Lars

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stamps
seanpashby
Members Picture
21 Mar 2015
09:36:49pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

They may do that anyway. Something tells me they are not done messing with this series. I think I'll wait a few years before I change anything.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Madbaker
Members Picture
22 Mar 2015
11:23:06pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

Regarding showing images of a catalogue page to illustrate the differences (before and after) between two versions. I'm pretty certain that would constitute "fair use" in the context that Sean did it here.

Including them sure would make the thread more useful.

Mark

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

www.madbaker.com
Anglophile
Members Picture
RPSL, APS, EPA; US, GB, Ireland, British Europe, Italy, Mauritius Classics
22 Mar 2015
11:36:22pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

I agree. The prior posting satisfied three of the four prongs of the classical fair use test.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"If this message contained legal advice, it would be followed by a bill."
seanpashby
Members Picture
23 Mar 2015
01:55:26pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

Just to be safe, I have contacted Amos Publishing to ask permission to post. As soon As I hear back, I will put the images back up here.

Like
Login to Like
this post
michael78651
Members Picture
SOR Auctioneer
23 Mar 2015
05:29:32pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

What ticks me off is that I had all the wet printings. I decided to sell them. Of course that 4 cent Lincoln coil used to be just a cheapo stamp under the old numbering. Now it's a whopper. So, I'm going to pay a visit to the sole dealer down here tomorrow and see if he has them. I'll worry about the postage dues later.

I still have to redo all the Portuguese and colonies Ceres stamps...... At least Steiner has created pages for those.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"My book, "The Whitechapel Fog" is available on Kindle!"

www.hipstamp.com/store/the-online-stamp-shop
seanpashby
Members Picture
23 Mar 2015
10:25:39pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

I'm not going to change anything yet. I have a feeling there will be more changes.

Like
Login to Like
this post
larsdog
Members Picture
APS #220693 ATA#57179
24 Mar 2015
12:51:10am
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

Quote:

"What ticks me off is that I had all the wet printings. I decided to sell them. Of course that 4 cent Lincoln coil used to be just a cheapo stamp under the old numbering. Now it's a whopper. So, I'm going to pay a visit to the sole dealer down here tomorrow and see if he has them. I'll worry about the postage dues later."



The wet/dry printing topic really covers two very different issues:

1. Flat plate stamps printed wet and dry
2. Rotary press stamps printed wet and dry

First of all, keep in mind the terms SHOULD be wet and moist, not wet and dry. Wet printing uses paper with 15% - 35% moisture content and dry printing uses paper with 5% - 10% moisture content. It's easy to see how those could be hard to identify at the extremes.

With Flat Plate Issues, you have to depend on determining the paper thickness using the "flick test" to separate wet and dry printings. There may be better ways, but I don't collect flat plate wet/dry differences because they were made with the same plates but just using different paper and pressure.

The Rotary Press wet/dry issues are different. The wet print was done on the Stickney Rotary Press and the Dry Printing was done on the Huck/Cottrell Press using different plates. All Rotary Press wet/dry issues can be identified by plate number! Imagine how handy a plate block or plate single would be:

Image Not Found

Even booklet panes can be identified in this way using partial plate number booklet panes:

Image Not Found

You might want to keep an eye out for plate blocks/singles and partial plate number panes of the Liberty Series. I would expect demand to rise rather quickly.

Happy Hunting!

Lars

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stamps
seanpashby
Members Picture
24 Mar 2015
12:16:57pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

You don't really need a plate number to identify them. If you notice on the above images, the electric eye bar markings are always mid-stamp on dry prints, and near the perfs (or absent) on wet prints. The exception to this is the 2 cent Jefferson, which has a wide variety of variations, but it was only dry printed so it doesn't matter anyway. If I only have a single stamp with no selvage, I hold it up to a light source at an angle so the glare directly bounces off toward you. Dry prints will appear very shiny compared to wt prints. I find this much easier and more reliable than the flick test. When you do this side by side, the difference is quite obvious. It gets a lot more complicated when you throw in gum varieties, gum breaker varieties, paper varieties, and tagging varieties. I hope this helps someone.

Like
Login to Like
this post
seanpashby
Members Picture
24 Mar 2015
12:22:36pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

I received permission from Amos Publishing to post these.Image Not Found
Image Not Found

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
BobbyBarnhart
Members Picture
They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
24 Mar 2015
01:19:40pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

Thanks, Sean, for following through with this.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke"

www.bobbybarnhart.net
smaier
Members Picture
Sally
24 Mar 2015
02:12:26pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

Thanks for posting the pages from the Scott catalog as well as how you tell the wet and dry printings apart. Every little tip helps...

Like
Login to Like
this post
Anglophile
Members Picture
RPSL, APS, EPA; US, GB, Ireland, British Europe, Italy, Mauritius Classics
24 Mar 2015
03:03:13pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

Quote:

"Of course that 4 cent Lincoln coil used to be just a cheapo stamp under the old numbering. Now it's a whopper."



Which item? 1303?



Like
Login to Like
this post

"If this message contained legal advice, it would be followed by a bill."
khj
Members Picture
24 Mar 2015
04:09:25pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

As much as I have griped about Amos, I have to give them credit for granting permission to post the 2-page notice in its entirety. It looks like they didn't even require you to put in a copyright notice!

Kudos to Amos for making the obvious right choice this time! (If they had only left 1847usa alone.)

Thanks again, Sean, for starting this thread and also for following up with Amos!

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
seanpashby
Members Picture
24 Mar 2015
06:23:39pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

In the email I sent them I asked permission to post these 2 pages. Their response was one word....."Granted".

Like
Login to Like
this post
michael78651
Members Picture
SOR Auctioneer
24 Mar 2015
07:26:36pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

The 4 cent Lincoln coil that I was referring to is Scott #1058.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"My book, "The Whitechapel Fog" is available on Kindle!"

www.hipstamp.com/store/the-online-stamp-shop
larsdog
Members Picture
APS #220693 ATA#57179
24 Mar 2015
09:55:52pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

Quote:

"You don't really need a plate number to identify them. If you notice on the above images, the electric eye bar markings are always mid-stamp on dry prints, and near the perfs (or absent) on wet prints."



True, and using non-plate number selvage may be a good strategy now, but when I put that together plate blocks were cheap and plentiful. I have used non-plate selvage before for stamp identification, and there are a few issues where non-plate selvage is MUCH less expensive than even a plate single.

My goal is to have as many stamps as possible that can be positively identified without having to even remove them from the mounts. I want an authoritative set that I can then use to evaluate any other stamp to determine if it is wet or dry printing, shiny or smooth gum, Type I or Type II, etc.

I realize watermarks and paper types can't typically be determined in that manner, but since I don't collect watermark or paper varieties (unless they indicate a press difference), that's not an issue for me.

Lars

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stamps
larsdog
Members Picture
APS #220693 ATA#57179
24 Mar 2015
10:05:16pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

Quote:

"The 4 cent Lincoln coil that I was referring to is Scott #1058."



Michael,

That is the wet printing that was only available as a Bureau pre-cancel, and previously was 1058b, right? I see a 2011 CV of $22.50 for a single, $47.50 for a pair, and $325.00 for a joint line pair. Has the price significantly risen since elevation to major catalog number status?

Lars

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stamps
khj
Members Picture
24 Mar 2015
11:00:32pm
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

Lars, here is a mapping from pre-2015 to 2015:

pre-2015 ==> 2015
1058 ==> 1058a
1058a ==> 1058b
1058b ==> 1058

So the 2015 Scott catalog number for what was 1058b, is now actually the major catalog number 1058. This will cause so many headaches and confusion, since the new 1058 exists only as pre-cancelled, as Lars mentioned.

The catalog value since 2011 has actually stayed the same or fallen. The 2015 catalog values for your 2011 ($22.50, $47.50, $325) are updated in the 2015 ($22.50, $47.50, $300).

Like
Login to Like
this post
larsdog
Members Picture
APS #220693 ATA#57179
25 Mar 2015
12:43:33am
re: Re-numbering of Liberty Series

Quote:

"This will cause so many headaches and confusion, since the new 1058 exists only as pre-cancelled"



Agreed. I think they are on the right track, but why go half way? If they are going to make the wet printing 4c coil a major, they should take this to its logical and inevitable conclusion NOW. 1058 should be the wet print coil. 1058A should be the dry print coil. Apply similar treatment to all other wet/dry issues where wet=Stickney and dry=Huck and be done with it. Should have been done 25 years ago, if not longer.

It will be interesting to see what, if anything, they do about wet/dry that AREN'T press differences (832, 1041, QE1-3 and others). In my opinion, those should remain minors.

Lars

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stamps
        
Please Note:
Postings that were loaded from the old Discussion Board cannot be edited.

Contact Webmaster | Visitors Online | Unsubscribe Emails


This site is provided by Roy Lingen at www.buckacover.com

User Agreement

Copyright © 2019 Stamporama.com