Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
The link to the eBay listing is: here
Here's an image flipped over:
To my eyes this looks like K A (possibly N) ?
The 'dash' or 'long hyphen' in front, does not resemble any HK cancel of that period I have seen.
Sprouting from the forehead, appears to be an index letter; either E or F, but this would normally be centred in line with the hyphen, if this was a Hong Kong cancel.
So assuming that the index letter that I think I see, is actually centred to the word that starts 'KA', this part of the cancel would look like: __ KAN??? __. This is all rather hard to explain.
Or, do we have a cleaned fiscal here, with some unrelated cancel neatly applied?
Anyway, perhaps someone could put me right on this because I'm beginning to wonder if I've got a bit of 'old timer's disease'.
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I thought initially it might be Hankow but the "ow" does look more like "an"; sometimes the cancel and design can be misleading though. I don't know of any overseas cancel that could include KAN on a HK stamp. Interesting item; I wonder who got it and if they will get it expertized.
Cheers,
Peter
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Well this finally sold for US$176.50. This seems a little lukewarm for a 1903 top value in this condition. So perhaps others may have been perplexed by the cancel.
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I bid on this and my take on the KAN part cancel is Kandy in what was then called Ceylon - sadly I did not win it - but I am always on the look out for odd arrival markings - but I agree unusual that a parcel would be posted aboard ship and then cancelled on arrival...
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If genuine, I bet it turns out to be "Kong" as in Kong - Kong, A CDS of that period; the appearance as an "A" is illusory, with cancel ink and design interference. That's my bet; I hope someone here won it and can let us know.
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Having found that $10 on eBay, I checked for cities beginning with 'KAN'. The only one that was more likely than any other to have an arrival cancel was in fact Kandy. However, I could not find one example of a single ring Kandy CDS. So this is still unclear.
Although many adhesives obviously slipped through uncancelled; hence arrival markings being applied, I find it a bit strange that a $10 would have been missed, as it would have been a great temptation to being pilfered. I would therefore have expected the post office clerks to have been particularly vigilant with such high values.
If, on the other hand this was posted on board a ship, is it likely that the ship's bursor would have had any $10 Hong Kong adhesives? So could the package have been taken on board pre-franked. Why would anyone do that?
As for this being a Hong Kong CDS:
I ran this image through a program called Retroreveal because there was some doubt over the second character 'A'. The result did not suggest any character with a rounded form; just two sloped straight legs.
As can be seen below, this was the CDS type used at that time. There were 24 such cancellators used in the colony; six each of four sizes between 21.5 to 23 mm.
The dash between the words Hong and Kong are smaller, as too the distance between those two words. On the $10, the distance between whichever lettering is before the dash and the letters 'KAN' is larger. The orientation of the index letter should be directly under the dash, on the $10 it is not; it's directly underneath the 'KAN'.
Well, these are my reasons for looking at the listed eBay item with suspicion. Maybe in the course of time other arguments may prevail.
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This, and the red "A" strike under the B62 on the other stamp, are certainly curiosities. I was thinking "horses not zebras" for this one as it is the most parsimonious explanation of a genuine cancel. This might be good to ask the Study Circle too. In my stamp with a striking "M" looking cancel, it was decided this is an A1 cancel from Amoy and the cancel ink and design contributed to it's "M" appearance. I'm still not convinced but I can't explain the "M" marking. Ningpo, can you apply the Retroreveal to this too please?
Peter
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As with many cancelled stamps that I have run through Retroreveal, the program can't 'reveal' what isn't there. So this was no help.
I used a different program, which can sometimes produce as good results, if not better, if I fiddle with the bells and whistles.
This is a good as I can get it. Although it doesn't show anything new, it does perhaps 'lift' the cancel a bit.
We have of course discussed this before and still I do not see an 'A1' here.
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Well, I was hoping the technology would supplement the opinions, but this is just too difficult an identification. Thanks for trying though.
Cheers,
Peter
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looking at the 'M' I hope it is genuine - but with out a sample of the cancel in a record book with its shape and angles etc to compare it to
the other explanation is it could be a double bounced A1 cancel with the bounce shifted leftwards.... but I doubt it...
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It is more likely N1 than A1 to me (Ningpo vs. Amoy) but at this stage, I'll just keep it in my collection as unidentified cancel, allegedly M1 Macau (which Webb only alluded to and was never issued).
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12:49:07pm
Kandahar ???
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An interesting nomination Charlie. I doubt that it is though, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Kandahar is landlocked, which pretty much eliminates the possibility a 'port of arrival' (paquebot handling) cancellation. Secondly, I would imagine that it would be a highly unusual mail destination during that period, particularly on mail needing high such value frankings. I personally have never seen or heard of mail to Afghanistan. Not impossible, granted.
The look of the cancellation is more akin to British Empire/European types with the typical use of index letters (usually for large post offices). I would imagine that Kandahar would have a middle eastern looking cancellation, struck in the native language.
I still maintain this is a suspicious cancellation. But then stranger things have happened.
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Hi Ningpo,
I agree that this looks like "KANDY". Here's an eBay lot with a similar postmark with an E below the "AN" of KANDY:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ceylon-1897-QV-2c-Postal-Stationery-District-Letter-Used-with-Kandy-Postmark-/351532015185?hash=item51d8f0de51&nma=true&si=3H5fcAnNt87rxK0fIMtf49DRNGs%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
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Thanks Nigel. It does seem to be pointing towards a Kandy cancellation. It would be ideal to get an image of the same CDS as shown on the $10; one with side bars. If one could be found (with index letter), then it is pretty much conclusive.
I would still like an explanation of how such a high value got cancelled at 'port of arrival' though.
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Ningpo,
I was sorting a batch of worldwide stamps and discovered this stamp. A socked-on-the-nose cancel from Kandanga, Queensland, Australia. Wikipedia does not give a lot of information on this small town, except for this info:
"Kandanga Post Office opened by June 1914 (a receiving office had been open from 1895)."
I know this cancel is not exactly your cancel, but could this Hong Kong stamp have passed through the Kandanga post office? Does anyone who collects Australia have any other examples of Kandanga cancels in their collections?
Linus
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Well spotted, particularly as an Australian post office hadn't even occurred to me Linus. But look what you've started! The Australian States are awash with post offices starting with the letters 'KAN':
Queensland:
Kandanga Upper
Kangaroo Point
Kanigan
Kannangur
Kannungur
Kanyan
New South Wales:
Kandos
Kandos Quarries
Kangaloon
Kangaroo Camp
Kangaroo Creek
Kangaroo Valley
Kangaroobie
Kangiara
Kangiara Mines
Kanwal
South Australia:
Kangarilla
Kangaringa
Kangaroo Flat
Kangaroo Island
Kanmantoo
Kanni
Kanowna
Kanyaka
Kanyaka Creek
Tasmania:
Kangaroo Point
Kangaroo Valley
Kanna Leena
Victoria:
Kanagulk
Kananook
Kanawha
Kancoona
Kaneira
Kangaroo
Kangaroo Flat
Kangaroo Flat South
Kangaroo Ground
Kangaroo Grounds
Kangaroo Hills
Kangaroo Hills Station
Kangawall
Kangerong
Kanimakatka
Kaniva
Kaniva R.S.
Kanumbra
Kanya
Kanyapella
Kanyapella South
Western Australia:
Kanowna
There's no rush but could you just find a postmark for all the others please? 
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Ningpo,
Oh my! Ha! I had no idea there were so many! Well, I started it, so I dug out an old stockbook of British Commonwealth that had a couple manilla stock pages of old Australian stamps. As I was watching college football on TV, I looked through several hundred stamps for any town cancels and I actually found one on your list: Kandos, New South Wales. Ha!
I did learn two things from this exercise:
Australian town cancels use a lot of dashes or "long hyphens" before and after the town name.
Australian town cancels do NOT seem to use index letters. I could not find any in my sample of Australian stamps.
Your original Hong Kong scan seems to show an index "E" or "F" on your "KAN" cancel. So now I am thinking it is NOT an Australian cancel after all.
I now have to make a page of Australian town cancels. Another new collection that started today from stamps that were buried in my stock.
Linus
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Try as I might, I still can't find an example of a single ring CDS of KANDY with side bars. Nigelc provided a link to an earlier type and I have found a similar one to his (from 1891), on a plain background but neither have the side bars.
Note that the Index letter 'B' is central to the town name; which is what I would expect:
I dismissed cdj1122's nomination of Kandahar, partly because it wasn't a port. Well, neither is Kandy, which is not what I originally thought. So, it would appear that mail actually came into Ceylon at the port of Colombo. From there, it would have taken a 68 mile train journey (at least 3 hours) to the tea plantation area of Kandy.
What surprises me, assuming that it is Kandy that we are dealing with here, is that the $10 stamp did not receive a Colombo port of arrival marking (Paquebot) before being loaded onto the train. During this time period, such a postal marking was in use; an unframed single line type.
This is even more surprising if Ceylon operated their postal service with the same bureaucracy as mainland India.
So this still is not yet conclusive in my mind.
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I've just been looking at an eBay listing which will be ending shortly. It's a very fine used copy of a KEVII $10 wmk CA (first issue). At time of writing, it has 45 bids and is sitting around $148. Now I've had a look at this and I am baffled. Perhaps I am having a mental block but when I look at the cancel it doesn't resemble anything I have seen.
The link to the eBay listing is: here
Here's an image flipped over:
To my eyes this looks like K A (possibly N) ?
The 'dash' or 'long hyphen' in front, does not resemble any HK cancel of that period I have seen.
Sprouting from the forehead, appears to be an index letter; either E or F, but this would normally be centred in line with the hyphen, if this was a Hong Kong cancel.
So assuming that the index letter that I think I see, is actually centred to the word that starts 'KA', this part of the cancel would look like: __ KAN??? __. This is all rather hard to explain.
Or, do we have a cleaned fiscal here, with some unrelated cancel neatly applied?
Anyway, perhaps someone could put me right on this because I'm beginning to wonder if I've got a bit of 'old timer's disease'.
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05:45:27am
re: Hong Kong: eBay listing of KEVII $10 - very suspect
I thought initially it might be Hankow but the "ow" does look more like "an"; sometimes the cancel and design can be misleading though. I don't know of any overseas cancel that could include KAN on a HK stamp. Interesting item; I wonder who got it and if they will get it expertized.
Cheers,
Peter
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re: Hong Kong: eBay listing of KEVII $10 - very suspect
Well this finally sold for US$176.50. This seems a little lukewarm for a 1903 top value in this condition. So perhaps others may have been perplexed by the cancel.
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re: Hong Kong: eBay listing of KEVII $10 - very suspect
I bid on this and my take on the KAN part cancel is Kandy in what was then called Ceylon - sadly I did not win it - but I am always on the look out for odd arrival markings - but I agree unusual that a parcel would be posted aboard ship and then cancelled on arrival...
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05:40:46pm
re: Hong Kong: eBay listing of KEVII $10 - very suspect
If genuine, I bet it turns out to be "Kong" as in Kong - Kong, A CDS of that period; the appearance as an "A" is illusory, with cancel ink and design interference. That's my bet; I hope someone here won it and can let us know.
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re: Hong Kong: eBay listing of KEVII $10 - very suspect
Having found that $10 on eBay, I checked for cities beginning with 'KAN'. The only one that was more likely than any other to have an arrival cancel was in fact Kandy. However, I could not find one example of a single ring Kandy CDS. So this is still unclear.
Although many adhesives obviously slipped through uncancelled; hence arrival markings being applied, I find it a bit strange that a $10 would have been missed, as it would have been a great temptation to being pilfered. I would therefore have expected the post office clerks to have been particularly vigilant with such high values.
If, on the other hand this was posted on board a ship, is it likely that the ship's bursor would have had any $10 Hong Kong adhesives? So could the package have been taken on board pre-franked. Why would anyone do that?
As for this being a Hong Kong CDS:
I ran this image through a program called Retroreveal because there was some doubt over the second character 'A'. The result did not suggest any character with a rounded form; just two sloped straight legs.
As can be seen below, this was the CDS type used at that time. There were 24 such cancellators used in the colony; six each of four sizes between 21.5 to 23 mm.
The dash between the words Hong and Kong are smaller, as too the distance between those two words. On the $10, the distance between whichever lettering is before the dash and the letters 'KAN' is larger. The orientation of the index letter should be directly under the dash, on the $10 it is not; it's directly underneath the 'KAN'.
Well, these are my reasons for looking at the listed eBay item with suspicion. Maybe in the course of time other arguments may prevail.
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05:31:54am
re: Hong Kong: eBay listing of KEVII $10 - very suspect
This, and the red "A" strike under the B62 on the other stamp, are certainly curiosities. I was thinking "horses not zebras" for this one as it is the most parsimonious explanation of a genuine cancel. This might be good to ask the Study Circle too. In my stamp with a striking "M" looking cancel, it was decided this is an A1 cancel from Amoy and the cancel ink and design contributed to it's "M" appearance. I'm still not convinced but I can't explain the "M" marking. Ningpo, can you apply the Retroreveal to this too please?
Peter
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re: Hong Kong: eBay listing of KEVII $10 - very suspect
As with many cancelled stamps that I have run through Retroreveal, the program can't 'reveal' what isn't there. So this was no help.
I used a different program, which can sometimes produce as good results, if not better, if I fiddle with the bells and whistles.
This is a good as I can get it. Although it doesn't show anything new, it does perhaps 'lift' the cancel a bit.
We have of course discussed this before and still I do not see an 'A1' here.
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10:17:32am
re: Hong Kong: eBay listing of KEVII $10 - very suspect
Well, I was hoping the technology would supplement the opinions, but this is just too difficult an identification. Thanks for trying though.
Cheers,
Peter
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re: Hong Kong: eBay listing of KEVII $10 - very suspect
looking at the 'M' I hope it is genuine - but with out a sample of the cancel in a record book with its shape and angles etc to compare it to
the other explanation is it could be a double bounced A1 cancel with the bounce shifted leftwards.... but I doubt it...
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03:19:31pm
re: Hong Kong: eBay listing of KEVII $10 - very suspect
It is more likely N1 than A1 to me (Ningpo vs. Amoy) but at this stage, I'll just keep it in my collection as unidentified cancel, allegedly M1 Macau (which Webb only alluded to and was never issued).
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
19 Oct 2015
12:49:07pm
re: Hong Kong: eBay listing of KEVII $10 - very suspect
Kandahar ???
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re: Hong Kong: eBay listing of KEVII $10 - very suspect
An interesting nomination Charlie. I doubt that it is though, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Kandahar is landlocked, which pretty much eliminates the possibility a 'port of arrival' (paquebot handling) cancellation. Secondly, I would imagine that it would be a highly unusual mail destination during that period, particularly on mail needing high such value frankings. I personally have never seen or heard of mail to Afghanistan. Not impossible, granted.
The look of the cancellation is more akin to British Empire/European types with the typical use of index letters (usually for large post offices). I would imagine that Kandahar would have a middle eastern looking cancellation, struck in the native language.
I still maintain this is a suspicious cancellation. But then stranger things have happened.
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re: Hong Kong: eBay listing of KEVII $10 - very suspect
Hi Ningpo,
I agree that this looks like "KANDY". Here's an eBay lot with a similar postmark with an E below the "AN" of KANDY:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ceylon-1897-QV-2c-Postal-Stationery-District-Letter-Used-with-Kandy-Postmark-/351532015185?hash=item51d8f0de51&nma=true&si=3H5fcAnNt87rxK0fIMtf49DRNGs%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
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re: Hong Kong: eBay listing of KEVII $10 - very suspect
Thanks Nigel. It does seem to be pointing towards a Kandy cancellation. It would be ideal to get an image of the same CDS as shown on the $10; one with side bars. If one could be found (with index letter), then it is pretty much conclusive.
I would still like an explanation of how such a high value got cancelled at 'port of arrival' though.
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re: Hong Kong: eBay listing of KEVII $10 - very suspect
Ningpo,
I was sorting a batch of worldwide stamps and discovered this stamp. A socked-on-the-nose cancel from Kandanga, Queensland, Australia. Wikipedia does not give a lot of information on this small town, except for this info:
"Kandanga Post Office opened by June 1914 (a receiving office had been open from 1895)."
I know this cancel is not exactly your cancel, but could this Hong Kong stamp have passed through the Kandanga post office? Does anyone who collects Australia have any other examples of Kandanga cancels in their collections?
Linus
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re: Hong Kong: eBay listing of KEVII $10 - very suspect
Well spotted, particularly as an Australian post office hadn't even occurred to me Linus. But look what you've started! The Australian States are awash with post offices starting with the letters 'KAN':
Queensland:
Kandanga Upper
Kangaroo Point
Kanigan
Kannangur
Kannungur
Kanyan
New South Wales:
Kandos
Kandos Quarries
Kangaloon
Kangaroo Camp
Kangaroo Creek
Kangaroo Valley
Kangaroobie
Kangiara
Kangiara Mines
Kanwal
South Australia:
Kangarilla
Kangaringa
Kangaroo Flat
Kangaroo Island
Kanmantoo
Kanni
Kanowna
Kanyaka
Kanyaka Creek
Tasmania:
Kangaroo Point
Kangaroo Valley
Kanna Leena
Victoria:
Kanagulk
Kananook
Kanawha
Kancoona
Kaneira
Kangaroo
Kangaroo Flat
Kangaroo Flat South
Kangaroo Ground
Kangaroo Grounds
Kangaroo Hills
Kangaroo Hills Station
Kangawall
Kangerong
Kanimakatka
Kaniva
Kaniva R.S.
Kanumbra
Kanya
Kanyapella
Kanyapella South
Western Australia:
Kanowna
There's no rush but could you just find a postmark for all the others please?
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re: Hong Kong: eBay listing of KEVII $10 - very suspect
Ningpo,
Oh my! Ha! I had no idea there were so many! Well, I started it, so I dug out an old stockbook of British Commonwealth that had a couple manilla stock pages of old Australian stamps. As I was watching college football on TV, I looked through several hundred stamps for any town cancels and I actually found one on your list: Kandos, New South Wales. Ha!
I did learn two things from this exercise:
Australian town cancels use a lot of dashes or "long hyphens" before and after the town name.
Australian town cancels do NOT seem to use index letters. I could not find any in my sample of Australian stamps.
Your original Hong Kong scan seems to show an index "E" or "F" on your "KAN" cancel. So now I am thinking it is NOT an Australian cancel after all.
I now have to make a page of Australian town cancels. Another new collection that started today from stamps that were buried in my stock.
Linus
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re: Hong Kong: eBay listing of KEVII $10 - very suspect
Try as I might, I still can't find an example of a single ring CDS of KANDY with side bars. Nigelc provided a link to an earlier type and I have found a similar one to his (from 1891), on a plain background but neither have the side bars.
Note that the Index letter 'B' is central to the town name; which is what I would expect:
I dismissed cdj1122's nomination of Kandahar, partly because it wasn't a port. Well, neither is Kandy, which is not what I originally thought. So, it would appear that mail actually came into Ceylon at the port of Colombo. From there, it would have taken a 68 mile train journey (at least 3 hours) to the tea plantation area of Kandy.
What surprises me, assuming that it is Kandy that we are dealing with here, is that the $10 stamp did not receive a Colombo port of arrival marking (Paquebot) before being loaded onto the train. During this time period, such a postal marking was in use; an unframed single line type.
This is even more surprising if Ceylon operated their postal service with the same bureaucracy as mainland India.
So this still is not yet conclusive in my mind.
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