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Sales, Swaps, Auction & Approvals/Approvals Disc. : Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

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rrraphy
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Retired Ap. Book Mod. Retired Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Retired consultant
25 Feb 2015
05:25:47pm
Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?
This discussion merits its own heading.
I am culling comments that went in another Discussion Topic thread, as best as I can.
In Chronological Order...Edited just for relevance to this topic:
--------------------------------------------------------------
Feb 25, 2015. rrraphy
We should probably not focus on time but on how much material is still left in a book.
Your arguments are certainly valid points. Old books still gets sales occasionally. But I think that old depleted books (looking at % sold) and books with just a few items left (looking at number of items left) do not offer SUBSTANTIAL choices for our members and thus fall short of our general rules guidelines. If they have been around for a long while (6 months or more?), it may be time to force their retirement.

I am recommending (for discussion) that we look into automatically retiring Approval Books with 75% sold (?? 70%, 65%? what number?), as well as books with less than 50 items remaining (not including our noted exceptions for FDC, S/S and sets..). No one has any issue with retirement of unsold Auction items!

I am posting this here, but I am opening a new discussion thread on this topic. And I will combine prior comments. Your thoughts please.

rrr...
----------------------------------------
Quote:

"Feb 23, 2015 rrraphy:
re: Stamp Images in Approval Books Gone
I am in favor of automatic retirement of Approval books older than 6-12 months, especially if no sales have occurred for the last 3 months.
Don't know how the rest of you feel about it, but older depleted books just take space, and seldom generate much activity.
I personally am retiring my books that are older than 6 months, especially if depleted and showing no sales for a while.
But it requires that each one of the sellers to have the discipline to do so. Automatic retirement of older books makes it mandatory, and not subject to discipline. All we have to agree is to do it (yes or no), and if yes, at what age?
rrr...
-------------------------------------------------------
Feb 23, 2015 Poodle_Mum
Yes - 6 months if no activity over the last 3 months. Recreate another book and add more material. Leaving it there to collect dust when it's at least half depleted I'd useless - you'll get no sales. Try reducing offices if no activity after 3 months and then retire it.
---------------------------------------
Feb 23, 2015 BobbyBarnhart
I'll go along with 6 months/no activity for past 3 months. (sorry Ralph and Kelly, I know my support will cause a lot of folk to vote against itBig Grin)
--------------------------------------
Feb 23, 2015 CapeStampMan
IMHO, if there is no activity after any amount of time the book should be deleted. Obviously it is just taking up space doing nothing but collecting cyber-space dust.
Mike
------------------------------------
Feb 24, 2015 snowy12
One small problem with deleting the books with no activity especially if they have few sales,is we have new members joining nearly every day ,all of these are potential buyers.
Books that are depleted should be deactivated.But give the new members a chance to see what you have for sale.That's my humble opinion.
Brian
------------------------------------
Michael78651 Feb 24, 2015
I agree with Brian. A perfect example is that I just sold over 400 stamps to someone who bought mostly from my older books that had been active for about a year. As a result, I retired several of the older books due to depletion.

I am all right with automatic closure of books that go below 20%. Anything higher leaves a lot of stamps in the book. To close a book of over 200 stamps just because it drops below 50% leaves over 100 stamps unsold in the book. Remember that with at least 100 stamps are required in order to post a book. Why do we want to close a book that meets the posting requirement? Doesn't make sense. It also means the member has to rework the 100 stamps into a new book. That is a lot of unnecessary work to do.

I don't think that time should have a factor in the short term. Bringing up the APS policy, since it was stated that our approval books are based on the APS books, sales books remain in circulation for 18 months, then are automatically retired. I wouldn't have a problem with that 18 month time frame.
-----------------------------------------------
Feb. 25, 2015 jeansimon
I have now re-uploaded the images of a book that was more than one year old. I agree with Michael and Brian that it is not as easy as described. I have seen sales from books that had been dormant for months as well. It made me happy that I had not deleted or retired the book yet. In my opinion, it is more interesting for a buyer to have a larger choice of items from one seller. They will be tempted to buy more, if they see there are more than just a few books to choose from.
---------------------------------------------
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TuskenRaider
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25 Feb 2015
06:15:11pm
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

Nope....
TuskenRaider

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bobstew617
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25 Feb 2015
08:42:25pm
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

As a buyer, I have stood on the sidelines about this issue, but I will add my two cents in.

I think there SHOULD be a rule--the argument that "maybe someone will eventually buy from the book" and keep it available forever I don't think is prudent. Any unsold material a seller thinks is still saleable can be entered into a new, fresh book that will most probably have more sales.

I have no problem with making the rule a "liberal" one--90% or more, 18 months, but especially as the approval books continue to multiply, I think some sort of rule needs to be applied.

I understand that since there has been no rule, everyone has done what they pleased, and ANY rule (no matter how liberal) will be met with some criticism (aka when the minimum amount to be entered into a book was set).

BOB

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michael78651
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SOR Auctioneer
26 Feb 2015
12:55:47am
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

Quote:

"I am recommending (for discussion) that we look into automatically retiring Approval Books with 75% sold (?? 70%, 65%? what number?), as well as books with less than 50 items remaining (not including our noted exceptions for FDC, S/S and sets..). No one has any issue with retirement of unsold Auction items!"



Point #1 - Automatic retirement of approval books with X% sold. I am in favor of that. By "automatic", you do mean that the system will do this, right? I think that 75% is fair.

Point #2 - Automatic retirement of books with less than 50 items remaining. I don't agree with that. The minimum number of stamps per book is 100. If a book with 49 items remaining, that is 51% sold. Let it get down to the 25% sold, or the time limit, which I suggested 18 months previously as an absolute maximum time limit for book retirement, but do find 12 months acceptable, if the book has had no sale in the prior 3 months. I offer the time frames as an additional method of catching books that may be sitting at say 60% sold, but no sales.

Point #3 - No one has issues with retirement of auction lots. Well, that's a different animal. Auctions are understood to be open for just a short time period. If unsold, they time out, they are not retired, and the buyer can quickly and easily relist the auction item. It is much more work to create an approval book than a one stamp/set listing for an auction.

Point #4 - Soliciting input from the membership. Thank you very much for giving everyone a chance to express their opinions on the proposal. I for one highly appreciate it. One suggestion I have is that when the new "rules" are formulated, please give us a chance to review and comment on them one last time prior to finalization.
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CapeStampMan
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Mike
26 Feb 2015
08:59:20am
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

It has been discussed, and decided, that we do not want to allow "stamp stores" here on SOR, but leaving approval books open for months on end is tantamount to having a "store", as it were. Our auctions are only allowed to run for a maximum of 14 days, with the possibility of renewing them, so why should we discriminate against one and not put reasonable limits on the other? The time in making up an auction lot is certainly more involved than in making up a page, or book, for the approvals but yet auctions are certainly very limited in exposure for sales. And before someone refutes that statement about the amount of time it takes to make up either lot, I have done both so am painfully aware of the amount of time involved to do both tasks.

Most sales, on my auction lots anyway, occur usually on the first day or maybe a flurry of activity on the last day, with very little action between them, so how much time should we really leave any lots, or books open?

Mike

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26 Feb 2015
09:22:14am
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

Quote:

"...leaving approval books open for months on end is tantamount to having a "store"... "


Excellent point! I concur. Applause

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Webpaper
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26 Feb 2015
09:26:42am
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

Just a quote on automatic retirement, whether it be at 6 months or 75 percent sold - please make certain to leave the pictures up (especially if it is retired automatically at 75 percent sold) so that both buyers and sellers have a means of checking what they bought/sold.

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BobbyBarnhart
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26 Feb 2015
09:31:13am
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

Carol

I understand that buyers and sellers should be able to see what they bought or sold, but wouldn't a week or so following retirement of the books be long enough? Why would you want the image lurking around for any longer than necessary to compare your sent or received shipment?

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DaSaintFan
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26 Feb 2015
10:26:44am
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

OLD? Nope. I've had some sales come in MONTHS later on an old book. Again, a new member drops in to look at approvals and you might just be that guy they're going to turn to.

DEPLETED? This one I'll agree with .. .within reason. If you're down to some small number of stamps (say 10% of your original content - a 200 stamp book down to 20, or a 50 stamp book down to 5) to me that would qualify as a depleted book, then there's no point in it not being retired/restructured. (The listings do show a percentage sold number - so if a book gets to 90% sold, or even make it a user-definable number (80, 85, 90, or even 100% if a seller so wishes) it goes into 'retirement/renewal' status).

Those of you who remember working with the approval books that'd go out through the mail, wasn't there was usually a note on them that said "if there are 5 or less stamps in this book, please return it to the original sender".

I do disagree with what Bobby says about an old book being a "store" though. Stores restructure/refill their shelves with new material to fill their empty shelves.

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rrraphy
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Retired Ap. Book Mod. Retired Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Retired consultant
26 Feb 2015
10:27:44am
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

Bobby: I for one bill once a month, and give buyers extra months to build up their total to justify postage charges ( however small they may be).
Approval consist mostly of lower valued stamps and most collectors don't have the same urgency as when they buy a high valued or rare stamp at auction (in my opinion).
So, I fee that several months is more likely to be needed than just a few weeks. Due to the small value of most items sold on Approval, it takes a while for some buyers to build up the total, unless they were lucky or got a great match!
So apart from the decision to automatically retire ( when?) we should not complicate the issue by shortening the display of older retired books. Let us leave it aside temporarily and focus on the question at hand.

The comment about stores is very well taken, Mike! We do NOT want Approvals to become stores. That alone should warrant some mandatory retirement. Also old depleted books are harder to navigate, as one cannot tell from the scan if an item has been sold or not. One had to look at the available/sold list. Reworking older books and addind new material will just make it more appealing to explore to your fellow collectors. Retiring an old book and issuing a new book is the way to go!
Mark: just like we set up a minimum size for a book to meet collector's needs, a depleted book with just a few stamps has very little appeal (to me)! I, for one, would like to see retirements of books that no longer offer a sustantial amount of material. 20 stamps? 50 stamps? I don't know? But clearly a more important measure than % depletion.
More comments please, we are getting some really good toughts here!
Rrr...

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26 Feb 2015
10:32:13am
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

I'm not sure a week does much good, most of my customers wait to see if there is anything else they want - a couple prefer to pay monthly.

If you look at "New Books" you will see that three of them are over 75 Percent and several are very close.

I'd just hate to have the images gone before the buyer has a chance to see the stamps.

I didn't realize how slow I typed ....

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philatelia
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APS 156650 25++ years!
26 Feb 2015
11:31:30am
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

Quote:

"Approval books are not auctions. I envision the approval book system as a deep inventory of books in numerous collecting areas. Someone just finished working on his or her Philippines, and can grab books to fit the country that has just been worked on. So buyers, in essence, perhaps need to embrace the longer term nature of the approvals. The APS is sitting on an inventory of 10,000s of circuit books, ready to be shipped out when requested."



This is a quote from Arno that I read when I was starting in the approvals. This concept of the approvals as a "deep inventory of books" doesn't really fit with the proposed strict deadlines for closing older books. Some material is so specialized that it takes quite some time to find the right buyers. But keeping it in the inventory adds depth to the system and makes it much more philatelically valuable. What is the overall goal - generating as many sales as possible or providing a resource for finding scarcer items? I don't think a one size fits all rule will work well here, we need to look at books one by one.

That said, books that are 80% depleted are another kettle of fish entirely.

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BobbyBarnhart
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26 Feb 2015
11:36:45am
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

I thought it was a given that a book could not be retired if there are outstanding transactions which have not been completed. Once all transaction have been completed and you have had an opportunity to "compare your sent or received shipment," why do you need the image any longer? Admittedly, sometimes the postal service does not always deliver in a timely manner, but 30 days should cover even international transactions if a week or so doesn't work.

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michael78651
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26 Feb 2015
12:47:33pm
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

Quote:

"And before someone refutes that statement about the amount of time it takes to make up either lot, I have done both so am painfully aware of the amount of time involved to do both tasks."



Through the years that I was on BidStart, and my selling on eBay I had posted single item lots for my store (not on eBay) and auctions totaling well over 50,000 items. On SOR I have done both auction lots and approval books. I have also made-up hundreds of true approval/sales books containing tens of thousands of stamps to sell through the APS, my own mail order approval service and for a dealer-friend. It is much easier overall to put up and process an auction lot than it is an approval book. I do not see any approval books being offered by the person making such a claim, so I don't know where that point of reference for such a claim is coming from.

If we put such a short time for approval books to be active that they work the same way as auction lots, then the approval books become no more than auction lots. That to me defeats the entire purpose of the approval books to permit members the chance to browse through the books in a leisurely manner without the short time constraints encountered with auction closings. This may diminish the sales from each book, resulting in the need to constantly relist the same books in order to give people a chance to look at them.
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cardstamp
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26 Feb 2015
07:15:01pm

Approvals
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

After my books have been open for awhile (around 3 months) and/or they have been picked over - I have started deleting them. I had a few books recently that were about 75% sold. I took the remaining items and mixed them into a new book with similar material. Many of the same stamps that sat in the older books sold from the newer books (same price). I notice many folks whom buy from me - like to look at a new book that is fairly full and once it gets depleted - they do not want to look thru pages that have scattered stamps that are left to choose from.

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Mike
27 Feb 2015
08:59:17am
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

Letting our "approvals" sit around, being ignored, for several months should then also be an option for the lots in the "auction" section. Auction sellers would also like the new members to have a chance of seeing our wares visible instead of having to re-list them time and again, if necessary. In reality our auction is more like approvals than an auction anyway, with very few second, or more, bids being shown on the lots. According to my "official reports", only a very little over seven percent of my lots in the last year even received a second bid. Some, but not many, of the sellers on the auction side list their stamps with a "Buy It Now" price the same as the starting bid, which basically would make those lots very similar to the approval selling, but with an expiration date attached. MAYBE the title of this subject should read: "Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval books, and if so, WHEN, AND should we allow the AUCTION lots to remain active for longer periods of time than the Fourteen days allowed currently to have parity between the Auction and Approval systems." WOW, what a mouthful for a title, but you get my point I'm sure. This should not be just about making changes to one part of selling stamps here on SOR, but encompass the whole idea of selling stamps here and making it an equal and fair experience both ways.

IMHO, selling stamps here on SOR is the most popular aspect of SOR, since we have more buyers and sellers than people participating in the DB, which is the exact same experience we have at out local stamp club. People come for the auctions, not the meetings. Our actual meeting usually takes 10 - 15 minutes, but the auctions last for 1 - 2 hours and no one ever leaves after the meeting secession is over.

Mike

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copy55555
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27 Feb 2015
12:15:14pm
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

I thought I'd throw in my two cents dollars worth. I collect primarily used US and Canada (at this time.) I utilize both the Auction and Approval sections and have added many items over the last year. Hopefully, I will be selling material in the near future.

For auctions, my opinion is that 14 days is long enough to keep each lot active. Many of the lots I see in the US auctions contain such common material that they should be in approval books and even then the seller shouldn't expect many sales. One of the reasons that many auction lots receive only a single bid is that the starting price is very close to the retail value, in my opinion.

For approvals, my opinion is that all books should be retired after 12 (or less) months. The images for each retired book should be saved for another 30 days after which they should be deleted. This will save space and eliminate some of the clutter.

All political opinions expressed in this posting are the responsibility of the author and are not necessarily that of SOR.

Tad




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Jansimon
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03 Mar 2015
07:42:58am

Approvals
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

I think that it is a good idea to automatically retire approval books that are over 75% depleted. Perhaps some sort of mechanism can be built in with a warning message like some have suggested, that the approval book will be retired in 14 (30?) days.
My experience is that retiring an approval book and then use the remaining stamps as the basis for a new book (with supplemented stamps) creates more sales than simply keeping the approval book for ever and ever.

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mitoneu
03 Mar 2015
09:41:17am

Approvals
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

First of all, let me say that the Approvals Books are a marvelous means of completing our collections!

I think that it would be reasonable to establish a time limit, providing some other conditions are met:
By instance, I would be in favour of retiring books after 6 months, provided no sale was made during the last month. The same should apply to 75-80% depleted books.

Obviously, Sellers should be warned beforehand, and can claim htat the book shouldn´t be deleted.

In any case, we should continue with this system, whatever the rules!!

Miguel

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michael78651
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SOR Auctioneer
03 Mar 2015
10:12:11am
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

I agree with Jan and Miguel. However, I think the time frame for automatic closure should be extended to at least three months following the sale that brought the book down below the threshold. That is because sometimes it can take more than a month to get payment, and if the purchase needs to be shipped to another country, it can take another month to arrive at the buyer's address.

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smauggie
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03 Mar 2015
10:57:16am
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

I agree that:

Books sold 75% or more should be closed.
Books older than six months should be closed.
Books with no activity for 3 months should be closed.
Book information should be given at least one month of life after their last transaction for verification purposes.
Leaving books up forever essentially constitutes a store.

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philatelia
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APS 156650 25++ years!
03 Mar 2015
02:11:46pm
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

I honestly have to say that I really don't think 6 months is enough time. My stamp season here is the hot summer months when I'm stuck in the house avoiding the hottest part of the day. The peak stamp season for most is the winter. If I list when I have time, I'd like to be able to keep the books active until the season ends in spring, which is about 9 months. An example, a book I listed last summer just sold over 100 lots yesterday.

I also believe the type of material should also be a factor. Specialized material should be given a longer shelf life as I mentioned in my previous post. A book of unusual material that still has a substantial portion unsold should be left online. Cheap, common stuff heavily picked over is a different story.

The approvals are a great success and everyone loves them so is there any pressing need to change the current system? Is it costing the site money? Is it truly annoying anyone and if so, who? If you don't want to look at an old book you don't have to, so why are we so worried about it? I'm fond of the saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I'd really like to know why we are having this conversation at all. Someone please explain why the old books are so horrible that we want to create a bunch rules that might upset folks? Who, if anyone, really benefits from the changes?

Yes we will need to have some sort of guideline for retiring books, but the rules should be grandfathered in. People listed these books not expecting a deadline. The rules should only apply to new books and older books should be given a choice. When we instituted the new rules for minimum content they weren't applied to books already online. Rules should NOT be changed mid-game.

As I stated earlier, what is the goal here? Are we trying to build a nice bunch of books with depth in many philatelic areas or are we a commercial site trying to make as many sales as possible?

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bobstew617
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03 Mar 2015
03:22:31pm
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

Theresa,

I agree with you that 6 months is not long enough, and others have indicated either 12 months or even 18 months (even APS has a limit!), and I have no problem there.

I DO have a problem when I see books that are 90% or more depleted in the inventory--I think that keeping them around until the end of time just is not prudent. Even 80% does not give me much inspiration to check that book out.

I think this rule, whatever it is, SHOULD apply to ALL books in this case as it is a totally different issue related to longevity, and it should be a UNIFORM rule. Trying to apply different rules for different types of books depending on type of material is just too time consuming and I know the moderators are already up to their eyeballs.

BOB

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sheepshanks
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03 Mar 2015
03:26:10pm
re: Should we mandate the retirement of OLD, and DEPLETED Approval Books, and if so, WHEN?

In my opinion, if a book has not had any sales within a four month period it needs to be retired, revamped and new material added.
Alternatively if having tried reducing prices after a couple of months has not brought further sales then remove the book.
Regarding keeping images, why can buyers not save an image to their own computer, this way they could check items purchased when they arrive and peruse at leisure. It only takes a right click and "save as".
Just my thoughts.
Vic

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