Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
As you probably know, there are 28 values in the set issued in 1992. But with phosphor banding variations of certain values, there are actually 42 unique stamps.
The situation extends further if the later issues are taken into account; another 17 values comprising 33 stamps including those from booklet panes. I haven’t given catalogue numbers as this is where my Scott 1997 does not list all those that are in Gibbons.
To me, these definitive issues are a nightmare, made worse by different printing methods and I do question the thinking behind them. It seems that someone got very excited with the concept of phosphor banding and lost the plot.
Getting them mint is no problem as there’s a surplus on the market in the form of pairs, blocks, panes and even sheets. However, to find these used has been a challenge, particularly as I will only accept a CDS cancellation. I refuse anything with the ‘wavy line’ portion of machine cancels.I also avoid any obvious CTO cancels. I know I have made a rod for my own back, as most mail receives machine cancels these days but that’s the way I collect.
Regardless of the type of cancellation used, numerous ‘values’ are as rare as hen’s teeth. I spent a couple of hours the other night trying to find certain values on eBay, Delcampe and Ebid. Now I do accept that finding anything from certain booklet panes is nigh on impossible, as these were contained within prestige booklets, so I ignore these anyway.
However, in many instances my searches turned up zilch. Now as these are low catalogue value stamps, I would have expected them to be listed in significant quantities.
Are any other collectors experiencing the same difficulty? Or am I the only one to bother with these horrors?
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My KGVI and QE2 HK collection is purely representational; that is, as long as I have one mint and one CDS (preferably SON) canceled stamp of a design, I'm happy. I do get more detailed about variations, errors, and cancel types with QV to KGV stamps.
I have the set you pictured, mint and used, but again only the main design.
Peter
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Hi Everyone;
It probably has a lot to do with the fact that they are not worth much as far as catalog value
goes. So most sellers will not waste time on them. Delcampe doesn't even want them on their
site period. They place a 18¢ surcharge on every sale, over-and-above the commissions.
Your only hope is huge Kiloware lots, and hope to find a few in there and sell what you don't
want to keep your invested cash at a minimum. Probably very few collectors of that issue are
as picky about cancels. Most collectors want light cancels, at least I do.
Just thinkin'....
TuskenRaider
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I understand your position on such material Peter because of your focus on early issues. I'm actually surprised that you even bother with this stuff.
It does seem that all of the QEII definitive issues cause more identification difficulties than all the other reigns put together (what with variations of watermarks, gums and printers). For such a small country, the stamp issuing authorities seem to have made things unnecessarily complicated. I guess though this is the challenge.
I just hope there might be other collectors of this later material, who could offer their views.
I hope this might illustrate part of the problem. Below is a scan of about 95% of the low values that I have accumulated over the years. I haven't bothered to sort these, as I know that I cannot possibly have every variation; as illustrated by the lack of $2.50 and $3.10 values. I wonder if my sample is illustrative of the scarcity of some of this material. Or perhaps because of my obsession with cancels, the sample is distorted.
I'm just very surprised that issues that are really the equivalent of GB Machins, are so thin on the ground:
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I was born in British Hong Kong, and left when I was 13 when we went to Canada. My interest back then therefore was to collect every stamp of HK which, to a 13 year old seemed possible, is nicely illustrated by this example as being improbable, if not impossible. Later in life, when I resurrected my collecting interests, I maintained my interest in HK through 1997, but focused on the earliest issues. Collecting treaty port cancels, HK cancels on foreign stamps, foreign cancels on HK stamps, and HK coins soon followed as other areas of collecting to honor this former British colony.
I will watch this post with interest; I do hope you find out more about this issue.
Cheers,
Peter
p.s. if you know where I can get a genuine 96c olive bister QV stamp, mint OR used, let me know and my collection will be complete. 
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Ok, have been through some old kiloware from the 1990's and echo Ningpo's hard to find values. My breakdown is as follows;
10c-27
50c-15
60c-3
70c-11
80c-16
$1-16
$1.70-18
$2- 30
$2.30-41
$5-18
$10-6
$20-3
$50-3
There are possibly more in lots still unsorted but they will have to wait their turn.
Assume the missing and low count figures reflect postal rates at the time.
Bearing in mind my kiloware came from a UK charity back in the 90's. Yes I'm just starting to sort through what is probably 10 large boxes, mainly Machins and Uk commemorative's.
This list includes some that will no doubt be thrown out as damaged.
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Yes, your comment about postal rates is spot on as far as sourcing your material from the UK is concerned.
I'd imagine that many of the values I'm looking for are lying in unsorted boxes of kiloware in Hong Kong itself.
The high values are usually not a problem in the UK because of international postal rates. It's the tiddlers that are so evasive.
I just wonder how many other countries have as many as 28 different values in an issue (never mind the phosphor band varieties).
Incidentally, the stock card showing all the small format definitives, shows at least one example of each of the 28 values (excluding the 3 large format ones). This will present a problem with album presentation in the future, particularly as I have 7 Hagner pages so far, containing this issue, not including those used ones and a complete sheet of the $5.
I may have to hive off this section of QEII into a separate album, where the album itself costs more than the stamps it contains. Oh good!
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Just got a message from Victor (Sheepshanks), here's part of it:
"Most of the ones I have are machine cancelled although some with cds but no coils. I have not checked for phosphor etc."
Thanks Victor for checking for me. And you've just mentioned yet another variation I had forgotten about; those damned coils.
So actually,there are a further 10 values in the first series alone that were produced in coils. So now we have 52 unique stamps.
As only one in five coil stamps has a number printed on the back, these are usually sold in strips of five. So yet more album space.
By the way, excluding one or two of the coils, I have everything mint in the two series, (or at least, all that I want), including booklets and sample panes.
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Here's an example of those pesky coils:
I just checked the SG catalogue for the $3.10 value (not this coil type) and this what I found:
1992 Photo Enschede P14.5 x 14
713d $3.10 orange-brown, black & pale blue tone, one centre phosphor band (2.9.96)
then..
1993 - 97 Lithography Leigh-Marsdon Ltd P14.5 x 14
759d $3.10 orange-brown, black & pale blue tone, one centre phosphor band (2.9.96)
Oh goody! Let's see how good I am at distinguishing photogravure from lithography.
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Ningpo,
I collect this set also, but have it in mostly MNH condition. The 3 high values and a few others I do not. I have decided not to concentrate on the varieties of this issue, as I am having enough fun with the year varieties of the QEII and Waterfront (1987-1991).
Yes, HK is maddening 
at times, but that is what makes it interesting
, I think!!
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Yes Bob, I know what you mean. I have only recently resurrected the 1992-1997 'Machins'. I had been sitting on them for years, concentrating on the 1987-91 'Skyline' series as you have.
At least identification is much more straight forward, in that three of the five issues have dated imprints.
I have moved on, as I have completed the 'skylines', with the exception of about four used low values. Strangely, these were much easier to obtain, even without the internet. About 90% of my used copies I bought from my local stamp fair. And I managed to maintain my own standards of 'only CDS cancellations'. I take it we are talking about these? :
This is the 1988 issue, with 'light shading under chin'.
The whole Queen Liz era is actually much more difficult than most would imagine. The 1962-1973 Annigoni's are a major challenge, particularly if you delve into the glazed paper issues and gum arabic versus PVA. There is a seemingly vast number of missing colour varieties too.
Following on, the 1973-1976 'coinage' issues can be frustrating. Different watermark types within issues (or no watermark at all) and the varieties; inverted, crown to right, crown to left). The list goes on.
If I was to give any advice to a new Hong Kong collector with limited budget, I would try to direct them to forming a specialised QEII collection. The purchase price of most QV, KEVII and GV material is now out of reach of most collectors. Even GVI is slowly heading that way.
QEII material is 'manageable' if a longer term view is taken. This also extends to postal history of the same era. Starting a collection of covers from small Hong Kong post offices will be a wise move. Most of the post offices that were around in the 1960's, 70's, 80's and even 90's are now gone. I think only two branches remain (in name) from the 1930's.
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TuskenRaider wrote:
"It probably has a lot to do with the fact that they are not worth much as far as catalog value
goes. So most sellers will not waste time on them. Delcampe doesn't even want them on their
site period. They place a 18¢ surcharge on every sale, over-and-above the commissions.
Your only hope is huge Kiloware lots, and hope to find a few in there and sell what you don't
want to keep your invested cash at a minimum."
Just seen your post. You have very valid points. Not being a seller myself, I don't appreciate the finer points of selling on these sites. Is the 18c surcharge a 'listing fee', like that charged by eBay?
This does seem to explain the reluctance of sellers to bother with this type of fodder.
You have though just jolted my memory. I have a huge bag of on paper kiloware in my attic (I know, it shouldn't be left there), which is about 3 kilos in weight. All of it Hong Kong QEII. From memory, a proportion of it consisted of this very issue. I think I dismissed most of what I looked at because of cancellations. However, many of these were actually cancelled by rather fancy slogan type cancels, like '100 years of the Fire Brigade' type stuff. Perhaps this type of material might be a compromise.
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Remember, stamp collecting is fun!
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Did I imply it wasn't?
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Hi Everyone;
"Ningpo wrote;
Just seen your post. You have very valid points. Not being a seller myself, I don't appreciate
the finer points of selling on these sites. Is the 18c surcharge a 'listing fee', like that charged
by eBay?"
This fairly recently added fee is not a listing fee. Listing is still free. However when a listing on
Delcampe sells, they charge the 5% commission + 18¢. 5% of a 20¢ listing is nearly zero, so
they add 18¢. This kills any profit for sellers of items less than a couple dollars or so.
They also threatened to cancel without notice any listings that receive few views over a set
period of time, and lots that receive many views, without any bids. they have really become
quite arrogant about their site.
This has turned off many US buyers, as so many listings are in French, plus with the new rules,
they are starting to look more like eBay every day.
Just some observations....
TuskenRaider
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Hi Ningpo;
Here is another thought. If you have that many of something, maybe you could list some nice
cancels in approvals. There are lots of collectors that really call themselves stamp collectors,
but who are actually cancel collectors.
But you should find many good ones in there. But you may not want to soak them unless you
intend to add to your collection, otherwise sell on paper, that is close cut. I like to use an
X-acto paper cutter for trimming and for US cut squares (postal stationary).
I think your collection of HK Machins is really beautiful, and I can understand your extra effort
as being well worth the time.
I have many Great Britain Machins, with about 200-300 town cancels that I will list on approv-
als eventually, so collectors like you can enjoy.
Keep on sortin'....
TuskenRaider
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If you were referring to that bag of kiloware, you have a good point. I hadn't even considered that option.
As for the many collection duplicates that I have, the cancellations would probably not be of interest as they are mostly partial. However, they could be listed as just good to fine used.
But following on from a point you made earlier, about Delcampe sellers not wanting to list these low value stamps, I don't think I could face listing these here piecemeal. I would rather group them into small lots, so perhaps the auction would be a better venue.
I appreciate your comments and advice.
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Ningpo,
Yes, that is the set I was referring to. That is a nice page of the 1988 variety--interesting you have a few pairs there as well. I really need to go through what I have and see what I am missing. I have some in a stock book also which I need to compare against what is in my albums.
I have to admit that Scott did make my life a bit easier when they decided to list and value the year varieties of that issue.
Regarding the Annigoni set, I have a hard enough time with identifying the watermark varieties, let alone paper and gum. BOB
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Bob
It is worth keeping an eye out for partial doubling of the black printing, on the large format 'skyline' values. These sometimes slip through on used material. I haven't any myself but I have seen them. There is a Hong Kong eBay dealer who has had a number but only mint. However, it's all down to cost, as with everything else.
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@Tuskenraider
Here's a large proportion of duplicates, of my 1982 definitives. This issue is my personal favourite of the whole QEII reign. These as you can probably see, would not be of interest to cancel collectors:
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Hi Everyone;
Might still be worth listing tho, if you don't need them.
Keep on sortin'....
TuskenRaider
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Ok have finally got around to sorting the soaked stamps and getting them on pages, amazing that with all the duplicates I was unable to complete any year set, and why is it that when you only have one example it turns out to be damaged in some fashion.
Anyway after a few hours sorting and use of the short range glasses here's the result. Now to work on finding the missing stamps and then the watermarked earlier issues.
Vic
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Just a side note - if anyone was wondering what Steiner pages look like, those are it.
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I will bump this thread.
I was adding catalog numbers to my Steiner Hong Kong pages prior to printing for the litho varieties. Steiner provides a space for a $1.60 and $5 issue that are not listed in my 2016 Scott. I checked other online sources and do not see a $1.60 litho variety but I do see several varieties for the $5 in Michel (litho unwatermarked, litho watermarked, and then phosphor variations.
Can someone confirm the status of the $1.60 and what Scott now lists in a later catalog?
I also would like to know how to confirm gravure vs litho. The screens on these are coarse so the "check the smoothness" of the letter may not work. I went back through what I had and two ($1.30 and $3.10) have phosphors bands. This may be a clue too.
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This site may help.
http://stamp-collector.co.uk/index.php?main_page=page&id=5&chapter=40
EDIT this old thread shows the difference on the HK litho.
https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=3805#103470
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Here are my pages for the used ones that I have. As you will observe the Litho ones are conspicuous by their absence, easy to obtain mint but like hens teeth used.
Not sure if this helps? I have a large number of used duplicates of the photo ones, so shout if you are missing any that I may have.
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"Can someone confirm the status of the $1.60 and what Scott now lists in a later catalog?"
Al
Here are the litho numbers snipped from the 2022 Scott Catalogue. No mention of a $1.60 litho stamp from Scott.
Hope this helps you man,
Linus
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This is a mint 1.60 in Litho with 2 bands.
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Thanks for the replies.
Sheepshank, for the reference link to stamp-collector.co.uk it does not seem to match your pages as I read the chart, it does not list any photogravure issues with phosphor bands. They are all litho. The Scott catalog snippet seems to be the same as what I have. My guess first Scott listed all the unique dominations and then a second group with printing differences. That is, the main listing is really a mixture. Sc
This is what I summarized from the website before I responded here. The watermarks are supposed to be from a prestige booklet that Steiner does provides spaces.
10c
Photo, litho 2B, litho wm
20c
Photo, litho 2B
50c
Photo, litho 2B
60c
Photo
70c
Photo
80c
Photo
90c
Photo
$1.00
Photo, litho 2B, watermarked
$1.10
Photo, litho 2B
$1.20
Photo, litho 2b
$1.30
Photo. Litho 2B
$1.40
Litho 2B
$1.50
Photo, litho 2b
$1.70
Photo, litho wm
$1.80 photo, litho wm
$1.90
Photo, litho 2b
$2.00
Photo, litho 2B, watermarked
$2.10
Photo, litho 1B, litho 2B
$2.30
Photo
$2.40
Photo
$2.50
Litho 1B, litho 2B
$2.60
Photo, litho 1B
$3.10
Litho 1B
$5
Photo,
litho 1B,
litho 2B
litho wm
$10
photo
$20
Photo
$50
photo
By print type for album pages layout.
Photo,
10, 20, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90. 1.00. 1.10, 1.20,1.30, 1.50, 1.70. 1.80. 1.90, 2.00, 2.10, 2.40, 2.50, 2.60, 5.00. 10, 20, 50
Litho 1 and 2B
10, 20, 50, $1, 1.10, 1.20, 1.30, 1.40 (litho only). 1.60 (litho only), 1.90. 2.00, 2.10(1 and 2B). 2.50 (1and2b) litho only, 2.60, 3.10 (litho only), $5 (1 and 2B)
Litho WM (prestige type booklet)
10, 1.10, 1.70, 1.80, 2.00, 5.00
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From that website this is the 1.60 line with header.
I'll see if I can scan the SG catalogue entry for you.
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Ok here is a scan of the SG 2015 Hong Kong catalogue.
First image is of the Photogravure issue. Edit to add ignore the first line about MS 701, it refers to a different issue entirely.
Second is the Lithographed issue.
I can only assume that the UK site has not been updated for a long time.
The Miniature sheet issues are all listed separately in Sg by year of issue.
Guess it is all as clear as mud now!
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Thanks for bumping this thread. I had not seen it before, and have learned some things from both the earlier and the more recent posts. I too have yet to clearly understand how to distinguish between the photo and litho printings, and also have a very limited number of used examples of a handful of the values, but remain on the lookout for others. I did acquire two or three of the miniature commemorative sheets (MS). One includes a pair of the £1.60 value and I will attempt to include a scan here. Can anyone confirm if the MS are photo or litho printings? I do not have access to a catalogue.
J. T. Hurd.
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Thanks again. The SG images are very useful. I will redo the pages with the prestige booklet items as entire sheets like Steiner has them.
My current practice is to just collect these specialty bboklet panes intact since the singles are not often seen or used.
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@JTHurd, your sheet is Litho.
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Thanks.
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I was able to obtain a series of articles by Daniel Tangri in the Bookmark Journal from the APRL that is supposedly a detailed study of the series.
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I started working on a cross reference using SG plus I was comparing to Scott since that is what is what Steiner usually uses as a base.
In studying the history, once again the catalog makers (SG and Scott) dp not seem to be consistent on their listing policies regarding issues from prestige booklets. In some cases they treat them like normal stamps but other times they just refer to the booklet as the primary entity.
Now the above list does NOT include many of the subsequent souvenir type sheets
In the above example the watermark varieties nor the Enschede printed Classic series are not likely to be seen in mail since the booklet was a special collector issue. This would often mean collecting them in the multiple booklet pane.
The Steiner pages is closest to Scott than SG in that Steiner ignores tagging varieties, In one case Scott expects you to pick up the missing issue in the booklet form.
I am still working on a listing of all the booklets.
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I updated the chart to add Scott numbers. I believe Scott has incorrectly listed some Litho varieties as photogravure in yellow. Scott does not list phosphor varieties so their catalog number would apply in non-phosphor and phosphor types.
I also finally found the series well covered in the Deegam Handbook for Machins. There are still other varieties mostly $10 stamps in various colors from a series of souvenir sheets issued.
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I ended up modifying the Steiner pages using SG numbers but grouped by printer and phosphor similar to Sheepshank. I would have preferred to do more chronologically but disrupted other pages too much.
I reported some errors in listings to Scott (litho printings identified as photo) and Steiner has one duplicate space for the $5 souvenir sheet after cross referencing spaces provided.
Two good sources for summaries
Daniel Tangri's articles in "The Bookmark Journal". 5 parts plus addendum
Deegam Handbook, file located in Archive directory(folder)
Drafts from LibreOffice Draw.
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This is really directed at those who collect the Hong Kong QEII definitive issues from 1992 to 1997, in particular the 1992-94 Scott 630 – 645 (SG 703-717). Here’s a sample of what I’m talking about:
As you probably know, there are 28 values in the set issued in 1992. But with phosphor banding variations of certain values, there are actually 42 unique stamps.
The situation extends further if the later issues are taken into account; another 17 values comprising 33 stamps including those from booklet panes. I haven’t given catalogue numbers as this is where my Scott 1997 does not list all those that are in Gibbons.
To me, these definitive issues are a nightmare, made worse by different printing methods and I do question the thinking behind them. It seems that someone got very excited with the concept of phosphor banding and lost the plot.
Getting them mint is no problem as there’s a surplus on the market in the form of pairs, blocks, panes and even sheets. However, to find these used has been a challenge, particularly as I will only accept a CDS cancellation. I refuse anything with the ‘wavy line’ portion of machine cancels.I also avoid any obvious CTO cancels. I know I have made a rod for my own back, as most mail receives machine cancels these days but that’s the way I collect.
Regardless of the type of cancellation used, numerous ‘values’ are as rare as hen’s teeth. I spent a couple of hours the other night trying to find certain values on eBay, Delcampe and Ebid. Now I do accept that finding anything from certain booklet panes is nigh on impossible, as these were contained within prestige booklets, so I ignore these anyway.
However, in many instances my searches turned up zilch. Now as these are low catalogue value stamps, I would have expected them to be listed in significant quantities.
Are any other collectors experiencing the same difficulty? Or am I the only one to bother with these horrors?
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10:33:55am
re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
My KGVI and QE2 HK collection is purely representational; that is, as long as I have one mint and one CDS (preferably SON) canceled stamp of a design, I'm happy. I do get more detailed about variations, errors, and cancel types with QV to KGV stamps.
I have the set you pictured, mint and used, but again only the main design.
Peter
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
Hi Everyone;
It probably has a lot to do with the fact that they are not worth much as far as catalog value
goes. So most sellers will not waste time on them. Delcampe doesn't even want them on their
site period. They place a 18¢ surcharge on every sale, over-and-above the commissions.
Your only hope is huge Kiloware lots, and hope to find a few in there and sell what you don't
want to keep your invested cash at a minimum. Probably very few collectors of that issue are
as picky about cancels. Most collectors want light cancels, at least I do.
Just thinkin'....
TuskenRaider
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
I understand your position on such material Peter because of your focus on early issues. I'm actually surprised that you even bother with this stuff.
It does seem that all of the QEII definitive issues cause more identification difficulties than all the other reigns put together (what with variations of watermarks, gums and printers). For such a small country, the stamp issuing authorities seem to have made things unnecessarily complicated. I guess though this is the challenge.
I just hope there might be other collectors of this later material, who could offer their views.
I hope this might illustrate part of the problem. Below is a scan of about 95% of the low values that I have accumulated over the years. I haven't bothered to sort these, as I know that I cannot possibly have every variation; as illustrated by the lack of $2.50 and $3.10 values. I wonder if my sample is illustrative of the scarcity of some of this material. Or perhaps because of my obsession with cancels, the sample is distorted.
I'm just very surprised that issues that are really the equivalent of GB Machins, are so thin on the ground:
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01:49:34pm
re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
I was born in British Hong Kong, and left when I was 13 when we went to Canada. My interest back then therefore was to collect every stamp of HK which, to a 13 year old seemed possible, is nicely illustrated by this example as being improbable, if not impossible. Later in life, when I resurrected my collecting interests, I maintained my interest in HK through 1997, but focused on the earliest issues. Collecting treaty port cancels, HK cancels on foreign stamps, foreign cancels on HK stamps, and HK coins soon followed as other areas of collecting to honor this former British colony.
I will watch this post with interest; I do hope you find out more about this issue.
Cheers,
Peter
p.s. if you know where I can get a genuine 96c olive bister QV stamp, mint OR used, let me know and my collection will be complete.
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Approvals
re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
Ok, have been through some old kiloware from the 1990's and echo Ningpo's hard to find values. My breakdown is as follows;
10c-27
50c-15
60c-3
70c-11
80c-16
$1-16
$1.70-18
$2- 30
$2.30-41
$5-18
$10-6
$20-3
$50-3
There are possibly more in lots still unsorted but they will have to wait their turn.
Assume the missing and low count figures reflect postal rates at the time.
Bearing in mind my kiloware came from a UK charity back in the 90's. Yes I'm just starting to sort through what is probably 10 large boxes, mainly Machins and Uk commemorative's.
This list includes some that will no doubt be thrown out as damaged.
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
Yes, your comment about postal rates is spot on as far as sourcing your material from the UK is concerned.
I'd imagine that many of the values I'm looking for are lying in unsorted boxes of kiloware in Hong Kong itself.
The high values are usually not a problem in the UK because of international postal rates. It's the tiddlers that are so evasive.
I just wonder how many other countries have as many as 28 different values in an issue (never mind the phosphor band varieties).
Incidentally, the stock card showing all the small format definitives, shows at least one example of each of the 28 values (excluding the 3 large format ones). This will present a problem with album presentation in the future, particularly as I have 7 Hagner pages so far, containing this issue, not including those used ones and a complete sheet of the $5.
I may have to hive off this section of QEII into a separate album, where the album itself costs more than the stamps it contains. Oh good!
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
Just got a message from Victor (Sheepshanks), here's part of it:
"Most of the ones I have are machine cancelled although some with cds but no coils. I have not checked for phosphor etc."
Thanks Victor for checking for me. And you've just mentioned yet another variation I had forgotten about; those damned coils.
So actually,there are a further 10 values in the first series alone that were produced in coils. So now we have 52 unique stamps.
As only one in five coil stamps has a number printed on the back, these are usually sold in strips of five. So yet more album space.
By the way, excluding one or two of the coils, I have everything mint in the two series, (or at least, all that I want), including booklets and sample panes.
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
Here's an example of those pesky coils:
I just checked the SG catalogue for the $3.10 value (not this coil type) and this what I found:
1992 Photo Enschede P14.5 x 14
713d $3.10 orange-brown, black & pale blue tone, one centre phosphor band (2.9.96)
then..
1993 - 97 Lithography Leigh-Marsdon Ltd P14.5 x 14
759d $3.10 orange-brown, black & pale blue tone, one centre phosphor band (2.9.96)
Oh goody! Let's see how good I am at distinguishing photogravure from lithography.
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
Ningpo,
I collect this set also, but have it in mostly MNH condition. The 3 high values and a few others I do not. I have decided not to concentrate on the varieties of this issue, as I am having enough fun with the year varieties of the QEII and Waterfront (1987-1991).
Yes, HK is maddening at times, but that is what makes it interesting, I think!!
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
Yes Bob, I know what you mean. I have only recently resurrected the 1992-1997 'Machins'. I had been sitting on them for years, concentrating on the 1987-91 'Skyline' series as you have.
At least identification is much more straight forward, in that three of the five issues have dated imprints.
I have moved on, as I have completed the 'skylines', with the exception of about four used low values. Strangely, these were much easier to obtain, even without the internet. About 90% of my used copies I bought from my local stamp fair. And I managed to maintain my own standards of 'only CDS cancellations'. I take it we are talking about these? :
This is the 1988 issue, with 'light shading under chin'.
The whole Queen Liz era is actually much more difficult than most would imagine. The 1962-1973 Annigoni's are a major challenge, particularly if you delve into the glazed paper issues and gum arabic versus PVA. There is a seemingly vast number of missing colour varieties too.
Following on, the 1973-1976 'coinage' issues can be frustrating. Different watermark types within issues (or no watermark at all) and the varieties; inverted, crown to right, crown to left). The list goes on.
If I was to give any advice to a new Hong Kong collector with limited budget, I would try to direct them to forming a specialised QEII collection. The purchase price of most QV, KEVII and GV material is now out of reach of most collectors. Even GVI is slowly heading that way.
QEII material is 'manageable' if a longer term view is taken. This also extends to postal history of the same era. Starting a collection of covers from small Hong Kong post offices will be a wise move. Most of the post offices that were around in the 1960's, 70's, 80's and even 90's are now gone. I think only two branches remain (in name) from the 1930's.
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
TuskenRaider wrote:
"It probably has a lot to do with the fact that they are not worth much as far as catalog value
goes. So most sellers will not waste time on them. Delcampe doesn't even want them on their
site period. They place a 18¢ surcharge on every sale, over-and-above the commissions.
Your only hope is huge Kiloware lots, and hope to find a few in there and sell what you don't
want to keep your invested cash at a minimum."
Just seen your post. You have very valid points. Not being a seller myself, I don't appreciate the finer points of selling on these sites. Is the 18c surcharge a 'listing fee', like that charged by eBay?
This does seem to explain the reluctance of sellers to bother with this type of fodder.
You have though just jolted my memory. I have a huge bag of on paper kiloware in my attic (I know, it shouldn't be left there), which is about 3 kilos in weight. All of it Hong Kong QEII. From memory, a proportion of it consisted of this very issue. I think I dismissed most of what I looked at because of cancellations. However, many of these were actually cancelled by rather fancy slogan type cancels, like '100 years of the Fire Brigade' type stuff. Perhaps this type of material might be a compromise.
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10:34:01pm
re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
Remember, stamp collecting is fun!
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
Did I imply it wasn't?
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
Hi Everyone;
"Ningpo wrote;
Just seen your post. You have very valid points. Not being a seller myself, I don't appreciate
the finer points of selling on these sites. Is the 18c surcharge a 'listing fee', like that charged
by eBay?"
This fairly recently added fee is not a listing fee. Listing is still free. However when a listing on
Delcampe sells, they charge the 5% commission + 18¢. 5% of a 20¢ listing is nearly zero, so
they add 18¢. This kills any profit for sellers of items less than a couple dollars or so.
They also threatened to cancel without notice any listings that receive few views over a set
period of time, and lots that receive many views, without any bids. they have really become
quite arrogant about their site.
This has turned off many US buyers, as so many listings are in French, plus with the new rules,
they are starting to look more like eBay every day.
Just some observations....
TuskenRaider
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
Hi Ningpo;
Here is another thought. If you have that many of something, maybe you could list some nice
cancels in approvals. There are lots of collectors that really call themselves stamp collectors,
but who are actually cancel collectors.
But you should find many good ones in there. But you may not want to soak them unless you
intend to add to your collection, otherwise sell on paper, that is close cut. I like to use an
X-acto paper cutter for trimming and for US cut squares (postal stationary).
I think your collection of HK Machins is really beautiful, and I can understand your extra effort
as being well worth the time.
I have many Great Britain Machins, with about 200-300 town cancels that I will list on approv-
als eventually, so collectors like you can enjoy.
Keep on sortin'....
TuskenRaider
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
If you were referring to that bag of kiloware, you have a good point. I hadn't even considered that option.
As for the many collection duplicates that I have, the cancellations would probably not be of interest as they are mostly partial. However, they could be listed as just good to fine used.
But following on from a point you made earlier, about Delcampe sellers not wanting to list these low value stamps, I don't think I could face listing these here piecemeal. I would rather group them into small lots, so perhaps the auction would be a better venue.
I appreciate your comments and advice.
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
Ningpo,
Yes, that is the set I was referring to. That is a nice page of the 1988 variety--interesting you have a few pairs there as well. I really need to go through what I have and see what I am missing. I have some in a stock book also which I need to compare against what is in my albums.
I have to admit that Scott did make my life a bit easier when they decided to list and value the year varieties of that issue.
Regarding the Annigoni set, I have a hard enough time with identifying the watermark varieties, let alone paper and gum. BOB
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
Bob
It is worth keeping an eye out for partial doubling of the black printing, on the large format 'skyline' values. These sometimes slip through on used material. I haven't any myself but I have seen them. There is a Hong Kong eBay dealer who has had a number but only mint. However, it's all down to cost, as with everything else.
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
@Tuskenraider
Here's a large proportion of duplicates, of my 1982 definitives. This issue is my personal favourite of the whole QEII reign. These as you can probably see, would not be of interest to cancel collectors:
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
Hi Everyone;
Might still be worth listing tho, if you don't need them.
Keep on sortin'....
TuskenRaider
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
Ok have finally got around to sorting the soaked stamps and getting them on pages, amazing that with all the duplicates I was unable to complete any year set, and why is it that when you only have one example it turns out to be damaged in some fashion.
Anyway after a few hours sorting and use of the short range glasses here's the result. Now to work on finding the missing stamps and then the watermarked earlier issues.
Vic
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11:44:38pm
re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
Just a side note - if anyone was wondering what Steiner pages look like, those are it.
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
I will bump this thread.
I was adding catalog numbers to my Steiner Hong Kong pages prior to printing for the litho varieties. Steiner provides a space for a $1.60 and $5 issue that are not listed in my 2016 Scott. I checked other online sources and do not see a $1.60 litho variety but I do see several varieties for the $5 in Michel (litho unwatermarked, litho watermarked, and then phosphor variations.
Can someone confirm the status of the $1.60 and what Scott now lists in a later catalog?
I also would like to know how to confirm gravure vs litho. The screens on these are coarse so the "check the smoothness" of the letter may not work. I went back through what I had and two ($1.30 and $3.10) have phosphors bands. This may be a clue too.
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
This site may help.
http://stamp-collector.co.uk/index.php?main_page=page&id=5&chapter=40
EDIT this old thread shows the difference on the HK litho.
https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=3805#103470
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
Here are my pages for the used ones that I have. As you will observe the Litho ones are conspicuous by their absence, easy to obtain mint but like hens teeth used.
Not sure if this helps? I have a large number of used duplicates of the photo ones, so shout if you are missing any that I may have.
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
"Can someone confirm the status of the $1.60 and what Scott now lists in a later catalog?"
Al
Here are the litho numbers snipped from the 2022 Scott Catalogue. No mention of a $1.60 litho stamp from Scott.
Hope this helps you man,
Linus
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
This is a mint 1.60 in Litho with 2 bands.
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
Thanks for the replies.
Sheepshank, for the reference link to stamp-collector.co.uk it does not seem to match your pages as I read the chart, it does not list any photogravure issues with phosphor bands. They are all litho. The Scott catalog snippet seems to be the same as what I have. My guess first Scott listed all the unique dominations and then a second group with printing differences. That is, the main listing is really a mixture. Sc
This is what I summarized from the website before I responded here. The watermarks are supposed to be from a prestige booklet that Steiner does provides spaces.
10c
Photo, litho 2B, litho wm
20c
Photo, litho 2B
50c
Photo, litho 2B
60c
Photo
70c
Photo
80c
Photo
90c
Photo
$1.00
Photo, litho 2B, watermarked
$1.10
Photo, litho 2B
$1.20
Photo, litho 2b
$1.30
Photo. Litho 2B
$1.40
Litho 2B
$1.50
Photo, litho 2b
$1.70
Photo, litho wm
$1.80 photo, litho wm
$1.90
Photo, litho 2b
$2.00
Photo, litho 2B, watermarked
$2.10
Photo, litho 1B, litho 2B
$2.30
Photo
$2.40
Photo
$2.50
Litho 1B, litho 2B
$2.60
Photo, litho 1B
$3.10
Litho 1B
$5
Photo,
litho 1B,
litho 2B
litho wm
$10
photo
$20
Photo
$50
photo
By print type for album pages layout.
Photo,
10, 20, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90. 1.00. 1.10, 1.20,1.30, 1.50, 1.70. 1.80. 1.90, 2.00, 2.10, 2.40, 2.50, 2.60, 5.00. 10, 20, 50
Litho 1 and 2B
10, 20, 50, $1, 1.10, 1.20, 1.30, 1.40 (litho only). 1.60 (litho only), 1.90. 2.00, 2.10(1 and 2B). 2.50 (1and2b) litho only, 2.60, 3.10 (litho only), $5 (1 and 2B)
Litho WM (prestige type booklet)
10, 1.10, 1.70, 1.80, 2.00, 5.00
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
From that website this is the 1.60 line with header.
I'll see if I can scan the SG catalogue entry for you.
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
Ok here is a scan of the SG 2015 Hong Kong catalogue.
First image is of the Photogravure issue. Edit to add ignore the first line about MS 701, it refers to a different issue entirely.
Second is the Lithographed issue.
I can only assume that the UK site has not been updated for a long time.
The Miniature sheet issues are all listed separately in Sg by year of issue.
Guess it is all as clear as mud now!
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
Thanks for bumping this thread. I had not seen it before, and have learned some things from both the earlier and the more recent posts. I too have yet to clearly understand how to distinguish between the photo and litho printings, and also have a very limited number of used examples of a handful of the values, but remain on the lookout for others. I did acquire two or three of the miniature commemorative sheets (MS). One includes a pair of the £1.60 value and I will attempt to include a scan here. Can anyone confirm if the MS are photo or litho printings? I do not have access to a catalogue.
J. T. Hurd.
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
Thanks again. The SG images are very useful. I will redo the pages with the prestige booklet items as entire sheets like Steiner has them.
My current practice is to just collect these specialty bboklet panes intact since the singles are not often seen or used.
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
@JTHurd, your sheet is Litho.
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
Thanks.
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
I was able to obtain a series of articles by Daniel Tangri in the Bookmark Journal from the APRL that is supposedly a detailed study of the series.
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
I started working on a cross reference using SG plus I was comparing to Scott since that is what is what Steiner usually uses as a base.
In studying the history, once again the catalog makers (SG and Scott) dp not seem to be consistent on their listing policies regarding issues from prestige booklets. In some cases they treat them like normal stamps but other times they just refer to the booklet as the primary entity.
Now the above list does NOT include many of the subsequent souvenir type sheets
In the above example the watermark varieties nor the Enschede printed Classic series are not likely to be seen in mail since the booklet was a special collector issue. This would often mean collecting them in the multiple booklet pane.
The Steiner pages is closest to Scott than SG in that Steiner ignores tagging varieties, In one case Scott expects you to pick up the missing issue in the booklet form.
I am still working on a listing of all the booklets.
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
I updated the chart to add Scott numbers. I believe Scott has incorrectly listed some Litho varieties as photogravure in yellow. Scott does not list phosphor varieties so their catalog number would apply in non-phosphor and phosphor types.
I also finally found the series well covered in the Deegam Handbook for Machins. There are still other varieties mostly $10 stamps in various colors from a series of souvenir sheets issued.
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re: Hong Kong 1992 definitives; a question for collectors
I ended up modifying the Steiner pages using SG numbers but grouped by printer and phosphor similar to Sheepshank. I would have preferred to do more chronologically but disrupted other pages too much.
I reported some errors in listings to Scott (litho printings identified as photo) and Steiner has one duplicate space for the $5 souvenir sheet after cross referencing spaces provided.
Two good sources for summaries
Daniel Tangri's articles in "The Bookmark Journal". 5 parts plus addendum
Deegam Handbook, file located in Archive directory(folder)
Drafts from LibreOffice Draw.
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