Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
In this image, the pair on the right is the normal scott #1057, perf 10 measures 22.4 X 19.6 mm. The stamp on the left is perf 9.5 measures 22.8 X 19.8. It is engraved printed, not tagged, and the paper is much thicker than either wet print or dry print paper. Has anyone seen this before? Is it a forgery?
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I'm wondering if the pair on the right is wet printed and the stamp at left is dry printed.
When I enlarge the pair on the right by ~3% so that the design height matches the left stamp, I find that the perforation holes line up very well. An issue of vertical paper shrinkage?
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I have examples of both wet and dry printing of this issue and the paper of the left stamp is much thicker than either of those. The design and perfs of the left stamp are larger than the normal one, so could it be paper shrink?
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Hi Everyone;
First soak the stamps in water and
measure wet, then dry and re-measure. HAHAHAHA
I don't see a perf 9½ in Scott's, nor have I heard of any stamps of that period of that
perf gauge. And the unusual thickness?? So I guess forgery is kinda obvious. The real
mystery isn't is it a forgery but why. Why go to that much trouble for 3¢? How about
cold war espionage?? That stamp was current during the height of Russia's attempts to
steal Nuclear secrets. Hmmmmm....
partying down at the Mos Eisley Cantina 
TuskenRaider
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Looking at the bottom edge of the pair, it looks like it could be possible that the edge was cut short. It might just be glare, but it looks like there is some paper scrap along the edge that is commonly seen after paper slicing that wasn't cleanly cut.
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I think I need to clarify a little. The pair on the right is normal. Regular perf 10, I have hundreds just like it. It is the single on the left that is different, as was mentioned above, there has never been a perf 9.5 in U.S. as far as I know. If it is a forgery, someone went to an awful lot of trouble to make a near perfect copy to save 3 cents. I am hoping someone has seen something like this before.
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I think the used stamp is perf 10.
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Hi Everyone;
When I was in India in 1967, our first port of call was Bombay, and later we headed for Madras,
on the East coast of India. An older shipmate told me of a black market exchange rate in Bombay.
They were selling 35% more Rupees to the dollar than the official rate. However, this black market
didn't exist in Madras. He confided that if I bought tons of Rupees in Bombay, and later sold them
to shipmates at 10% above the rate, I could profit a 25% margin.
So I withdrew my full wages and bought $1,500 in Rupees, and sure enough, I made a ton of
money and my shipmates got a better deal also. Altho I knew that Bombay was a famous smug-
gling and black market capital of the world, I could never quite figure out why they would pay so
much to get greenbacks. Many years later I read what happened to all those US dollars. They
would eventually find their way into Russia.
It takes many years to train a good agent, to be able to operate in a foreign nation and not get
caught. They must never act oddly in any way. Russia built exact replicas of US towns to give
agents a more realistic form of training. They had to learn flawless English, and learn all about
every aspect of American life. The US currency purchased on the black market was given to agents,
so they would have real money to spend. Why spend years to train an agent only to have him get
caught passing fake money?
The stamps were another matter however, as nobody would look twice at a stamp to see if it was
a fake. An agent in this country, stealing nuclear secrets in the 60s was guilty of treason and could
be treated the same as Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. So agents would want to avoid any contact
with anyone in the government at all costs. So why risk going into a post office and being seen by
officials when you can use good counterfeit stamps.
Just something I read many years ago, and it made sense at the time, altho I can't speak from first-
hand experience, even tho our ships primary purpose was spying on the Russian bloc.
Luckin' in the shadows....
TuskenRaider
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Thank you Tuskenraider. That is the best answer I have heard yet. If I could prove it, that would be a very cool addition to my collection.
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Michael, why do you think it is perf 10?
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The Scott US Specialized does not list the 3 cent coil as having a counterfeit. By the way, if you're looking for the counterfeit section in the 2015 catalog, it is on page 936. An editing error has it misplaced and misnumbered in the table of contents of the catalog.
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I like spy flicks, if I was a Rusky spy during the cold war, I would have bought my stamps from the vending machine at Woolworth's,and then drop of my message like it was the water bill in the letter box in front of the Rexall drug store to throw of any goons that may be tailing me.
But in reality I would pass on my Moscow bound message to the shoe shine boy on a micro engraved Franklin half dollar.
Yep, I have been watching the Americans on Wednesday nights.
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Hi Everyone;
@ seanpashby;
That stamp is sooo not perf 10!
Thank you for posting this stamp. I'm not sure if this is what I suggested it might be, but it
sure is a huge mystery for sure, and I'm sure everyone on Stamp-o-Rama will think so too.
This should provide for hours and hours of speculation as to what it is.
I can't imagine anyone counterfeiting a stamp that is as common as this one. There must be
100 million of them in collections. Every collector probably has dozens of them, and can't
even give them away.
If I had a thousand bucks to splurge on, I would buy that in a New York minute.
back to the caverns....
TuskenRaider
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The perf gauge in the pictures is from Honor-Bilt, but it measures the same on one from Mission Stamp Company and a clear plastic one from Showguard. I'm not interested in it being worth anything, I would just love to know the story behind it.
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TuskenRaider said,
"I can't imagine anyone counterfeiting a stamp that is as common as this one. There must be
100 million of them in collections. Every collector probably has dozens of them, and can't
even give them away."
Ken Pugh, the forgeries specialist who lives here in Vancouver, has presented a couple of programs to my stamp club. In both, he has displayed forgeries of modern Canadian definitives in booklet form that were apparently printed in Eastern Europe and were never intended for collectors; they were sold primarily to corner stores and even to some dealers, who probably knew what they were but couldn't resist the price, probably half of face value. As Ken told us, although the stamps are worth little individually, in bulk they were sold for a great deal of money, certainly enough to make the effort worthwhile provided the forgers weren't caught.
The stamps in one case were so perfectly executed that Ken identified them only because the cover of the booklet contained an error. The stamps themselves were excellent, even better than the authentic stamps issued by Canada Post.
Bob
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"I can't imagine anyone counterfeiting a stamp that is as common as this one."
Counterfeiting is not done to trick stamp collectors. Those stamps are called forgeries.
Counterfeiting is done to defraud the government. Go through the counterfeit section of the Scott US Specialized. You'll find even 1/2 cent stamps along with regular first class stamps that have been counterfeited.
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The perf gauge in the picture is printed on Brown card stock.
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Using a different perf gauge on white card stock.
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Well, you could very well have an unknown counterfeit. Size of the design is wrong, size of the paper is wrong, perfs are wrong. Similar counterfeits sell for $$$. Might be time to get a certificate.
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Thank you Michael. How do I go about getting it certified?
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William Weiss is an expert in US stamps. Here is the link to his site for you to review.
http://www.stampexpertizing.com/
If you think it may be worth the expense, get in touch with him. You may want to refer him to your post here to see if he thinks it is worth a closer look.
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Thank you David. I completely understand what you are saying and hopefully someday I will have all the proper tools I need. Until then, I must deal with what I have, and I'm learning as I go. As you mentioned, there can be shrinkage of the cardboard of the perf gauge, but the two stamps are obviously quite a bit different, and Scott only lists a perf 10, so that still leaves me with the question of what this "oddball" is.
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Hi Everyone;
@ mdroth;
If you look closer you will see that there are 11 holes on the right and
a partial hole above and below, and 11 holes on the left also with partial holes above and below. Your "RED FLAG" just crashed and burned!!
Just noticing the obvious....
TuskenRaider
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07:33:44am
Gentlemen -
Please play nice.
Lisa
DB Moderator
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07:39:27am
Personal attacks and name calling will not be tolerated on the discussion board. Some members are a little abrupt in their messages, some may be downright insensitive, and others may just be opinionated old curmudgeons (such as yours truly), but the moderators will not permit vitriolic disrespect. In other words, play nice or find another playground.
No posts have been deleted or edited, I leave it up to the authors of previous messages to do the right thing.
Bobby Barnhart
DB Moderator
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07:49:57am
As mentioned previously, very common stamps are often heavily counterfeited, not to fool collectors but for monetary gain similar to counterfeiting currency. See http://www.stampsjoann.net/Counterfeit/Counterfeit-main.html
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11:25:59am
Responded to David via PM. Did not mean to implicate him in anything.
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Thank you everyone for your responses. I will get it checked out as soon as I set up a pay pal account and post the results here.
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MDROTH brings up the souvenir sheet where the 3 center appears in a slightly larger format than the original stamps. That is a possibility, but it doesn't look like it is a match. I had not thought about the souvenir sheet.
I put a regular Liberty Series stamp over the 3 center on the souvenir sheet. The entire stamp, perfs included fit inside the stamp on the souvenir sheet. Here is an example of a wet printing 3 cent coil placed on top of the larger stamp on the souvenir sheet.
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Hi Everyone;
Today I had bi-lateral ingenial hernia surgery. That means two surgeries, and the procedure was
not lapro-scopic, but open surgery (much more invasive & painful).
I appologize to everyone on this thread and to the moderators Lisa and Bobby. I'll be several
weeks recovering from this, and will try to stay off of this discussion board, or only get on here
AFTER taking my very powerful Barbituate pain meds, so I'll be less of a pain in the neck.
Have a nice weekend everyone, and stay well, and please if you are over 50, be very careful
when lifting. You do not want to go thru this procedure.
slithering off to my cavern....
TuskenRaider
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06:38:44pm
Take care of yourself, Ken. Hope you have some good (legal) drugs for the pain. At least you have "stamp therapy" as a fall back to cabin fever while you recuperate.
Bobby
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To throw in my 2 cents' worth (preferably a mint Scott 73 Jackson from 1861), if you are really worried about the expansion/contraction from changes in temperature or humidity, the worst thing you can do is go to a metal gauge. The gauge just sits there, totally unchanged by humidity and only minimally effected by temperature, and the stamp grows and contracts. On the other hand, a paper gauge, being made from the same material, expands and contracts just like the stamp does and the little dots on the gauge and the perforations on the stamp maintain the same relationship.
Practically speaking, the growth or shrinkage any perf gauge would have to display to reflect a change of even 1/4 of a perf far, far exceeds that of any solid material known to man.
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Hi Everyone;
@ dollhaus;
That is an interesting observation about both stamp and gauge being make from the same material.
I have always thought that everyone has made far too much of this 'expanxion/shrinkage' thing.
As I mentioned in an earlier reply, soak stamp in water, and measure with perf gauge, then dry
completely and measure again. Most people would probably be surprised at the results.
Ohhhh these meds sure are goooood. 
Just an idea tho....
TuskenRaider
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Metal or plastic or paper perf gauge - whatever. What's AWESOME is another Stamporama member has found something very cool and has shared with us. We are a lucky bunch here and the tradition continues.
A big round of applause and a bit of foot stompin' to Sean for his eagle eyes that caught this perf variety! Nicely done! 
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Thank you Philatelia. As an update, Bill Weiss did an online examination and decided it was worth sending in for a bettor look. I will send it out to him tomorrow and post the results here.
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Let us know the results.
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I like your new avatar, Sean (it's all I can add to the conversation, but I have been following it with great interest on multiple fronts)
David
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01:24:32am
I was going to post a note about my concern with shrinkage, but decided to await further results. This cold weather seems to be affecting things even here in Florida. I imagine it must be a real problem in Maine and up-state New York.
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Here are the results of a little experiment. These images are of a scott 1057c taken out of a stock book kept around 70 degrees.
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The perfs do not line up perfectly with either 10 or 9.5. Somewhere in between. Now I have immersed the stamp into warm water for 30 minutes and re-measured.
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The stamp has obviously expanded as it soaked up moisture. Keep in mind, the perf gauge, although cardboard, was not exposed to any moisture until the moist stamp was placed on top. I plan to obtain a metal perf gauge and conduct another experiment where I will measure the perfs on a hot, dry Southern California day, then again on a cool, rainy day.
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Hi Everyone;
@ seanpashby;
I'm glad to see you experimenting a little bit. It probably won't reveal where this stamp is from,
but you are bound to learn more about this expansion/shrinkage thing than most of the specu-
lators on here, whom I'm sure have not done such experiments.
For sure, you have two different stamps, and the oddball one is not listed in Scott's. After you
get that thing certified you should contact Scott Publishing and inform them of your find. Also
contact Linn's and at the least You will probably have a short article written up about this find.
So I hope you are up for becoming a celebrity, because you may well be one soon.
The member on here that has most recently had some stuff written about her find is of course
none other than Theresa, user name Philatelia.
I think some of the naysayers may be just a bit envious of your find, as I know I am.
Thanks again for sharing with all of us....you're one of us now.
Just a driftin'....
TuskenRaider
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I heard back from Bill Weiss today. According to his examination, it is an ordinary stamp and I measured the perfs incorrectly. Hmmmmm......
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Hi seanpashby;
I know what I saw and I don't agree with his opinion. Get some other gauges and re-check. Also get
a different expertiser. See if Scott Inc. will give an opinion. Perhaps Linn's has someone on staff with
the expertise. Also Auction houses that specialize in this type of material.
I'm sure that Bill Weiss is very honest and will not purposely mis-lead you. If you send it out to any-
one else, insure for large amount, and send it priority that requires a signature.
There is no way that stamp is a regular issue, as it could be some kind of error. things happen every
day.
here are your two stamps one superimposed on the other, it is obvious they are not the same. One
or the other of them is not regular issue.
Also try to measure the hole sizes, as the fifth one down on the right of the single looks too big. May-
be a reperf? Not sure. If you know a tool maker or machinist, that has access to a shadow graph you
can measure with extreme accuracy. Some magnifying glasses have a flat glass scale that is precision
etched and used to measure very small holes or objects. You might be able to get a set of pin gauges
to work but it would be hard to do that way.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Just recoverin'....
TuskenRaider
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10:32:21am
Some experts take the attitude that if they do not have an example in their reference collection the submission must not be genuine, because, after all, how could an average Joe Collector have something that the, the big shot expert, doesn't have ?
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I have known Bill from back in the StampWants days. He isn't like that. He's a good, down-to-earth guy.
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"I have known Bill from back in the StampWants days. He isn't like that. He's a good, down-to-earth guy"
He also has tools and information most collectors don't have.....
Experts, if any doubt about issuing an absolute, can/will offer a "no opinion"
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Here is my problem with this. When I asked him to explain why the actual paper size and design size are larger than what they should be, he replied he has none, but the perf size is as it should be. If you look at the pictures, and he is correct, then every other copy of this stamp I have, the perfs are smaller than they should be. I am surely not an expert, but you don't have to be to know..."One of these things is not like the others". I was not looking to be the owner of a valuable stamp, I just wanted to know what it is to satisfy my own curiosity.
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I understand Sean....
IMHO.... The over-all size difference between stamps, I believe is the way they were cut (and possibly scissor cut in addition).
You stated the paper is thicker on the stamp in question, that will affect the shrinkage rate. When stamps of that era were produced, the paper was moistened, sometimes not to an exact spec....
Even the "DRY" vs wet printing is a misnomer, the dry printing was done with less of a moisture content but the paper was still wet....
There are many factors determing the final product, two being the time span between print and perforation.
Trust me when I tell you I feel your pain....
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Hi Everyone;
@ seanpashby;
I'm sorry for not suggesting this from the beginning, and it would have dissolved a lot of con-
troversy and confusion. Sean, if you send this out again to either Scott, or Linn's or another
stamp appraiser/expert, send the exact same stamps as in your first post and image. There
is clearly a huge question here based on the obvious difference between them. One of them
is not right! So make sure the send the exact two samples you originally showed us.
Also keep up the project of experimentation, you are on the right path. Experiments with well
documented and reported results, will trump casual speculation every time. We will all stand
to gain factual knowledge from your efforts.
Some remarks on here, remind me of a TV ad I recently heard about an over-the-counter health
product. To quote the audio track "Estimates suggest that this product...." I have probably
been guilty of that myself, as it seems to be a common human frailty.
Maybe... they were going for humor....
Struttin' back to cave....
TuskenRaider
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Ken, my comment was not in reference to yours. It was to the one above my reply. Sorry you took it as addressing your comment. It wasn't.
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Hi Michael;
I got it, I see your point, sorry, it seems folks like to speculate more than quote facts. Kinda
like "estimates suggest that this product....".
We sometimes like to join in a discussion even if we have no factual knowledge of the topic.
Just a human trait. The trick is to ignore the speculation instead of attacking the speculators.
Then Lisa will not have to come in and break up the barroom brawl.
Just Saturdayin' out....
TuskenRaider
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My concern with this discussion, particularly the comparison of the stamp images, is that it appears to be based on a photo of the stamps in question (I could be wrong I suppose). A comparison of the stamps should be made from a single scanned image on black background preferably at the highest resolution possible, e.g., 1200 DPI. The single image should include all three stamps. Only then can a reasonable assessment of the images be made.
(Edit: I think I missed what appears to be the scanned image in the thread. Sorry. My opinion is its close enough. Meaning this. When measured with objectivity, the perfs will be closest to 10 than 9.5 or near enough. That they don't match exactly the other stamps is a non-issue.)
Further, I would take Bill Weiss' opinion to heart, given his reputation. I assume you paid for a $5 quick ID. If you want a cert, pay the $35-$40, but I'm sure the result will be the same.
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Another thing that can be learned by aligning the left and right side perfs of the questionable stamp is that this stamps perfs do not match itself. That is the right side and left side do not measure exactly the same.
I also see that in most of the images posted showing the stamp being measured, there are problems with the measurement. In one case the stamp is slightly rotated to the perf gauge. In another case the control stamp (the pair) is set so that the middle perfs are aligned with the gauge and then compared to the target stamp, which is measured with the top perf aligned with the gauge.
So here are my observations:
- Stamps not measured consistently or correctly
- Target stamps left edge perfs are a different gauge than the right
- Comparison stamps (the pair) may not even be the same type (are they a different printing, wet vs dry, small hole vs large?)
- The stamps in question were issued over a long duration (many years)
- An expert was consulted and the conclusion was they measure perf 10
From this I think its reasonable to conclude either the perfs on the right may be the result of damange or altered for some reason OR its close enough for reasonable purposes, given the duration of this issue.
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Hi Everyone;
HungaryForStamps said;
"Another thing that can be learned by aligning the left and right side perfs of the questionable
stamp is that this stamps perfs do not match itself. That is the right side and left side do not
measure exactly the same.
- Target stamps left edge perfs are a different gauge than the right"
Just so we are on the same page;
We are talking about the used single, in the very first scan at the top of this thread, correct?
Okay, on the right side, count 11 complete holes and two half-holes above and below just on the
edge of the stamp. Next, on the left side count 11 holes and two half-holes above and just below
also on the edge of the stamp. Now in what universe do they not measure the same?
He was trying to be funny right?
Just thinkin'
TuskenRaider
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The perf size of the used stamp was only a small part of the question. Look at the second image in this thread, where the used stamp is laying on top of the pair. Look at the size of the paper and the size of the printed image. I have hundreds of coil stamps from this series, not just the 3 cent. They are all very close to the same size, both paper and image. I have not been able to find one that is this much larger, hence why I started this post. The perf measurement was only a small part of the question and it seems to be the only thing anyone is concerned about, including Mr. Weiss. Does anyone have one in their collection that resembles that stamp? Ignore the perfs please.
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Hi Everyone;
Hey Sean, you are spot on, that is bigger, and I don't need a shadow graph, electron microscope,
nor a micrometer to tell, either.
I'll check some of mine next chance I get and let you know my results.
Just wonderin'....
TuskenRaider
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I am in no way disagreeing with you. I came here because I have no idea what this is or what caused it to become what it is, and was hoping to be enlightened. Assuming that everyone's theory of expansion is correct, then theoretically, one should be able to "grow" or stretch a flat plate printed stamp into a rotary printed stamp. That is what you are saying is it not? That should raise a whole new set of speculation, especially where Washington/Franklins are concerned. In that second image above, the stamp is laying on top of the pair and imaged together.
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Hi Everyone;
@ seanpashby;
Have you contacted the APS for their opinions or does Bill Weiss, represent the APS?
Just curious.
I don't know if is possible to stretch a stamp and not have the ink crack in some places!
Also I have found a number of over-sized Machins recently, but I believe that the Royal
Post uses different printers, and that probably explains the differences. They definitely
were not stretched, as the inks used to print them is very prone to cracking when flexed
too much as in creasing.
I found it interesting that Bill Weiss did not have an explanation of the size difference,
nor about the thickness of the paper!
Very interesting Mystery, Sean! Keep us posted.
Just stayin' in the shadows....
TuskenRaider
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Such a long life this thread has! Well, since it's still here, and the question is still unresolved, I'll add my penny.
I took the liberty (great pun, eh?) of doing some image manipulation, lining up the perf holes of the stamp in question with the coil pair that it is being compared to. It's curious that no one else has done that, although the difference in the two stamps is obvious without any "special effort". Here's the result:
My conclusion: The stamp on the left is not like the stamp on the right!
Bob
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Thank you Bob! That is all I have been trying to say all along. As I said earlier, I have hundreds of coils stamps from this series as this is my "Flyspeck area". They all match up pretty well against that coil pair in size and perforation except for this one used stamp. It's starting to make me crazy....well, more crazy at least. I am hoping someone can come up with others. A "stretched stamp" would provide an answer if it is possible.
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Sorry, I was wrong about the left and right of the stamp being a different gauge. I mistook Tuskan Raiders image for a scan and compared left and right using that and there were slight differences. But the count is the same.
What might be helpful (at least in future discussions like this) is to post a scan and not a photo, and base image comparisons on scans. Photos can distort the underlying stamps depending on angle etc. A scan is way more accurate. Though I believe there is a size difference here (both vertically and horizontally - has the OP confirmed horizontal size difference?).
I still think this is a non-issue that could be chalked up to the type of paper used and how much the paper shrank when drying or some other affect over its lifetime. As has already been mentioned the Liberty series has gotten a lot of attention over the years. If you want some very expert advice on this particular question, post the question over on SCF in the appropriate forum, using a SCAN.
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Yeah, I see he already did.
Well, shrinkage with wet printings can vary quite a bit and the amount depends on many factors including paper. That's the best explanation I can think of.
Also, just a comment on TuskenRaider's last post: you can't expect that a $5 quick ID from an expert is going to include an explanation of anything, including shrinkage and paper thickness (not sure you would get that with a cert either).
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I do not have a scanner unfortunately. I was entertaining the paper expansion/shrinkage idea for a while until I experimented with repeatedly soaking, compressing and drying of similar stamps. That experiment showed insignificant size difference. As you can see in the first two images in this post, there is quite a significant difference. The plan is to continue to show it to any dealer, expert, collector I come across, hoping that eventually someone will have a definitive answer, or even better, more examples and an answer. If anyone knows of any literature written on this series or the Bureau in general of that time period, I would appreciate a nudge in the right direction. What started as a mild curiosity has turned into a need of an answer.
Thank you all,
Sean
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Hi Everyone;
I agree Sean. Please find an answer, before we all go nuts or think we have.
HungaryForStamps is correct about scanner accuracy. The plane that the CCD (charge-coupled detector)
is in is fixed, and the glass bed of the scanner is also in a fixed plane. These two planes are perfectly
parallel to a very high degree of accuracy.
Using a camera, the user has to adjust the camera in an attempt to match the camera's CCD plane, with
the plane that the stamp surface exists in. Nearly impossible. You can get close, but it will produce some
degree of distortion tho. And if the camera is a cell phone you might as well draw a picture. Cel phones
are only good for selfies!
Just chillin' out....
TuskenRaider
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01:16:03pm
Perhaps I missed something here but is it not possible that after the roll of sheets were fed into the cutter that created the strips which became rolls of coil stamps, one cutter (Wheel ???) for some reason was set a bit further from the adjoining cutter ? (Cutters ?)
I am not sure exactly how the cutters are installed but the pins that are used to make perforations sometimes break and are replaced ? Could there have been a repair that allowed for some inadvertent variation ?
If this has been already considered and I missed it being dismissed, or explained, just forget I suggested the idea
I am thinking that sharp cutting wheels are assembled on a shaft with a number of shims in between;
Cutter - ten shims - Cutter - ten shims - Cutter - ten shims - Cutter - ten shims - Cutter -eleven shims Cutter
That would explain the gross size difference and any other minor variations would be the result of paper thickness or moisture content.
And if so, there ought to be a few similar "tall" examples residing in a collection or an old shoebox where thousands of common stamps often are consigned just waiting for some clever devils to "flyspeck" that issue more thoroughly.
I have a box in the closet with similar common stamps all bundled in packs of 100 or 200 apiece that haven't seen the light of day in forty years.
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Hi cdj1122;
It is the size of the actual IMAGE that is in question. Sean has already stated that he soaked
these stamps until very wet and measured them. I have also done the same experiment, with
regards to the size of the image on the paper. The amount of expansion was so small that it
is barely measurable.
Many members commenting on here are well aware that paper expands when wet, but most 
have not bothered to research by how much is the expansion factor nor done any experiments
to discover how much growth occurs.
I have done some research. Research that revealed that paper fibers grow in diameter much
more than length. Which means that paper when wet will grow much more in thickness than in
length or width.
Also in question is the obvious difference in perforation on the subject stamp. This HAS been
checked by some members on here by over-laying one image onto another. Most of the rest
are just speculating as to what is different with the subject stamp.
In any event, I'm very thankful for this thread and for Sean posting it. We will eventually ALL,
including myself, learn a lot more about fly specking these weird stamps, for which we can find
no reasonable explanation. 
For now I'll call this one a UFO (unidentified found object). Just don't tell the US Air Force about
this or we'll all up being held captive in area 59, Roswell New Mexico!
Just chillin'....
TuskenRaider
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Have you thought about contacting someone at Linn's Stamp magazine? Frequently they will inspect / publish stamps that are unusual or difficult to identify and either offer an opinion or ask for reader's input. May not help, but you never know.
Also, in the Feb 2, 2015 issue of Linn's is an article by William Weiss about his life and how he came to be an expertizer. It was interesting, especially after following this discussion....
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I think for now I am going to do some footwork and more research. If I can't find anyone with similar copies, then I may pursue that course of action. I am finding that sources of literature on this series is not easy to find. There are several books, but all are out of publication and not easy to find.
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Might I suggest contacting the American Philatelic Research Library, assuming you are a member of APS. I've found the staff there to be exceptionally helpful.
Bob
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I finally have an answer to this mystery. I sent the stamp to Ken Lawrence and this is what he says it is:
Hi Sean,
If you look at the edge of your stamp under a microscope, you'll see that it is double thickness. Some collectors call this "double paper" and try to separate a part of the top layer and fold it back to show the effect, but it can destroy the stamp if the two layers are strongly fused together.
It's really a splice -- a mill splice, where one web end is spliced to the next at the paper mill before the web is finished and dried, not a press splice at the printer. Because the paper is double thickness, it doesn't shrink much after printing. On a normal intaglio print, as the paper dries it shrinks perpendicular to the grain, which on horizontal coil stamps is in the vertical dimension.
In this case, the double thickness prevented normal shrinkage, leaving the printed image taller than on a normal coil print.
Best regards,
Ken
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Uh-oh. Somebody said something who actually knows something. Fun's over!
And, speaking of fun:
"... It takes many years to train a good agent ... [T]hey must never act oddly in any way. Russia built exact replicas of US towns to give agents a more realistic form of training ..."
And I thought that this was just the coolest plot line ever devised by Nelson B DeMille! They really built those towns?
"... The US currency purchased on the black market was given to agents, so they would have real money to spend ... The stamps were another matter however, as nobody would look twice at a stamp to see if it was a fake."
There's nothing suspicious about a foreigner flying into America with a roll of 3c stamps in his luggage?
I'm thinking that returning Russian diplomats & tourists could bring back a roll of stamps easily & anonymously enough, were they really worried about their spies calling attention to themselves by, say, visiting a post office to mail a letter.
"Remember, Comrade, your first stop must be Nassau Street, to buy mint never-hinged postage ... be sure to check the gum ..."
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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Hi all;
@ ikeyPikey;
Hey, don't send Sydney Greenstreet, and Peter Lorre packing just yet. There is plenty of mystery
here yet. I have to conclude this is a counterfeit, as there are too many things wrong with this
stamp. The image is too big and the overall size of the stamp is too big, and the perforations are
wrong.
@ seanpashby;
Altho Ken Lawrence is probably very knowledgeable, one simple thing has been overlooked. Per-
forations and slitting of sheets into strips would have to be done after the printing and drying.
Perforation holes would not be clean is paper is still wet. If this over-sized stamp were dried and
then perforated, it would have the same hole spacing as all the other stamps from that print run.
This I believe makes this stamp a counterfeit, altho not a very good one if they got so many things
wrong. However I would like to thank seanpashby, and everyone else who replied here for making
this the most fun thread I've ever read on here!
Just Chillin'....
TuskenRaider
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Ken Lawrence is considered to be a most respected and knowledgeable person at the expert level. I have followed his writings and general career for many years. If he has rendered an opinion, you can take it to the bank.
Dan C.
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10:00:16am
I agree with Dan. Ken Lawrence is one of the most respected philatelists around, and especially with respect to issues of the USA.
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I'll grant that about Ken Lawrence, but he has a large ego, and is very territorial over being an "expert". When asked about getting more stamp collectors involved in expertization, his comment was, "We have plenty of experts now. We don't need any more." So much for getting more people involved in other facets of the hobby. Oh, yes, he said that to me just a couple of months ago.
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I understand Mr Lawrence's point to be that all stamps shrink, but that the stamp-on-a-join did not shrink.
{Page-Up}, re-read?
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
PS: A rule against insulting personal comments should not be taken to apply only to subscribers.
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Although I continued to read, I stayed out of posting in this thread after my initial post because I wasn't interested in getting into a "tit for tat" with another member in this thread.
As Ken Lawrence stated, this is a genuine example of a mill splice, and would be considered an EFO.
There are so many incorrect or misleading statements and suggestions regarding wet/dry paper, resulting from a misunderstanding of the wet/dry printing process, that I would suggest the membership simply ignore any information regarding wet/dry paper/printing in this thread other than --
-- It is a well established FACT that machine made paper WILL shrink in the direction perpendicular to the overall grain orientation (as noted by Ken Lawrence). This shrinkage may or may not be measurable, depending on the moisture content of the paper during printing and now, the thickness of the paper, and the amount of grain orientation.
While there are many other correct comments regarding wet/dry paper/printing in this thread, there are also too many incorrect/misleading statements that will only cause the reader to misinterpret other stamps in the future. I would suggest that you view other threads/sources if you want to learn about wet/dry.
Thanks for posting the original pic and question, Sean. Also thanks for posting Ken Lawrence's reply. I'm glad that were finally able to determine it was a mill splice.
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And that NASA story is a furphy too.
http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp
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Good on you, jillcrow!
I had always wondered why capillary action would not suffice, as it should work independently of gravity & vacuum, but had never thought to 'snope it'!
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In this image, the pair on the right is the normal scott #1057, perf 10 measures 22.4 X 19.6 mm. The stamp on the left is perf 9.5 measures 22.8 X 19.8. It is engraved printed, not tagged, and the paper is much thicker than either wet print or dry print paper. Has anyone seen this before? Is it a forgery?
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
I'm wondering if the pair on the right is wet printed and the stamp at left is dry printed.
When I enlarge the pair on the right by ~3% so that the design height matches the left stamp, I find that the perforation holes line up very well. An issue of vertical paper shrinkage?
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
I have examples of both wet and dry printing of this issue and the paper of the left stamp is much thicker than either of those. The design and perfs of the left stamp are larger than the normal one, so could it be paper shrink?
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Hi Everyone;
First soak the stamps in water and
measure wet, then dry and re-measure. HAHAHAHA
I don't see a perf 9½ in Scott's, nor have I heard of any stamps of that period of that
perf gauge. And the unusual thickness?? So I guess forgery is kinda obvious. The real
mystery isn't is it a forgery but why. Why go to that much trouble for 3¢? How about
cold war espionage?? That stamp was current during the height of Russia's attempts to
steal Nuclear secrets. Hmmmmm....
partying down at the Mos Eisley Cantina
TuskenRaider
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02:33:13pm
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Looking at the bottom edge of the pair, it looks like it could be possible that the edge was cut short. It might just be glare, but it looks like there is some paper scrap along the edge that is commonly seen after paper slicing that wasn't cleanly cut.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
I think I need to clarify a little. The pair on the right is normal. Regular perf 10, I have hundreds just like it. It is the single on the left that is different, as was mentioned above, there has never been a perf 9.5 in U.S. as far as I know. If it is a forgery, someone went to an awful lot of trouble to make a near perfect copy to save 3 cents. I am hoping someone has seen something like this before.
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04:10:45pm
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
I think the used stamp is perf 10.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Hi Everyone;
When I was in India in 1967, our first port of call was Bombay, and later we headed for Madras,
on the East coast of India. An older shipmate told me of a black market exchange rate in Bombay.
They were selling 35% more Rupees to the dollar than the official rate. However, this black market
didn't exist in Madras. He confided that if I bought tons of Rupees in Bombay, and later sold them
to shipmates at 10% above the rate, I could profit a 25% margin.
So I withdrew my full wages and bought $1,500 in Rupees, and sure enough, I made a ton of
money and my shipmates got a better deal also. Altho I knew that Bombay was a famous smug-
gling and black market capital of the world, I could never quite figure out why they would pay so
much to get greenbacks. Many years later I read what happened to all those US dollars. They
would eventually find their way into Russia.
It takes many years to train a good agent, to be able to operate in a foreign nation and not get
caught. They must never act oddly in any way. Russia built exact replicas of US towns to give
agents a more realistic form of training. They had to learn flawless English, and learn all about
every aspect of American life. The US currency purchased on the black market was given to agents,
so they would have real money to spend. Why spend years to train an agent only to have him get
caught passing fake money?
The stamps were another matter however, as nobody would look twice at a stamp to see if it was
a fake. An agent in this country, stealing nuclear secrets in the 60s was guilty of treason and could
be treated the same as Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. So agents would want to avoid any contact
with anyone in the government at all costs. So why risk going into a post office and being seen by
officials when you can use good counterfeit stamps.
Just something I read many years ago, and it made sense at the time, altho I can't speak from first-
hand experience, even tho our ships primary purpose was spying on the Russian bloc.
Luckin' in the shadows....
TuskenRaider
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Thank you Tuskenraider. That is the best answer I have heard yet. If I could prove it, that would be a very cool addition to my collection.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Michael, why do you think it is perf 10?
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
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09:09:33pm
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
The Scott US Specialized does not list the 3 cent coil as having a counterfeit. By the way, if you're looking for the counterfeit section in the 2015 catalog, it is on page 936. An editing error has it misplaced and misnumbered in the table of contents of the catalog.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
I like spy flicks, if I was a Rusky spy during the cold war, I would have bought my stamps from the vending machine at Woolworth's,and then drop of my message like it was the water bill in the letter box in front of the Rexall drug store to throw of any goons that may be tailing me. But in reality I would pass on my Moscow bound message to the shoe shine boy on a micro engraved Franklin half dollar. Yep, I have been watching the Americans on Wednesday nights.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Hi Everyone;
@ seanpashby;
That stamp is sooo not perf 10!
Thank you for posting this stamp. I'm not sure if this is what I suggested it might be, but it
sure is a huge mystery for sure, and I'm sure everyone on Stamp-o-Rama will think so too.
This should provide for hours and hours of speculation as to what it is.
I can't imagine anyone counterfeiting a stamp that is as common as this one. There must be
100 million of them in collections. Every collector probably has dozens of them, and can't
even give them away.
If I had a thousand bucks to splurge on, I would buy that in a New York minute.
back to the caverns....
TuskenRaider
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
The perf gauge in the pictures is from Honor-Bilt, but it measures the same on one from Mission Stamp Company and a clear plastic one from Showguard. I'm not interested in it being worth anything, I would just love to know the story behind it.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
TuskenRaider said,
"I can't imagine anyone counterfeiting a stamp that is as common as this one. There must be
100 million of them in collections. Every collector probably has dozens of them, and can't
even give them away."
Ken Pugh, the forgeries specialist who lives here in Vancouver, has presented a couple of programs to my stamp club. In both, he has displayed forgeries of modern Canadian definitives in booklet form that were apparently printed in Eastern Europe and were never intended for collectors; they were sold primarily to corner stores and even to some dealers, who probably knew what they were but couldn't resist the price, probably half of face value. As Ken told us, although the stamps are worth little individually, in bulk they were sold for a great deal of money, certainly enough to make the effort worthwhile provided the forgers weren't caught.
The stamps in one case were so perfectly executed that Ken identified them only because the cover of the booklet contained an error. The stamps themselves were excellent, even better than the authentic stamps issued by Canada Post.
Bob
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02:13:31am
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
"I can't imagine anyone counterfeiting a stamp that is as common as this one."
Counterfeiting is not done to trick stamp collectors. Those stamps are called forgeries.
Counterfeiting is done to defraud the government. Go through the counterfeit section of the Scott US Specialized. You'll find even 1/2 cent stamps along with regular first class stamps that have been counterfeited.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
The perf gauge in the picture is printed on Brown card stock.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Using a different perf gauge on white card stock.
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03:02:07pm
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Well, you could very well have an unknown counterfeit. Size of the design is wrong, size of the paper is wrong, perfs are wrong. Similar counterfeits sell for $$$. Might be time to get a certificate.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Thank you Michael. How do I go about getting it certified?
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05:27:19pm
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
William Weiss is an expert in US stamps. Here is the link to his site for you to review.
http://www.stampexpertizing.com/
If you think it may be worth the expense, get in touch with him. You may want to refer him to your post here to see if he thinks it is worth a closer look.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Thank you David. I completely understand what you are saying and hopefully someday I will have all the proper tools I need. Until then, I must deal with what I have, and I'm learning as I go. As you mentioned, there can be shrinkage of the cardboard of the perf gauge, but the two stamps are obviously quite a bit different, and Scott only lists a perf 10, so that still leaves me with the question of what this "oddball" is.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Hi Everyone;
@ mdroth;
If you look closer you will see that there are 11 holes on the right and
a partial hole above and below, and 11 holes on the left also with partial holes above and below. Your "RED FLAG" just crashed and burned!!
Just noticing the obvious....
TuskenRaider
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It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis
19 Feb 2015
07:33:44am
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Gentlemen -
Please play nice.
Lisa
DB Moderator
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
19 Feb 2015
07:39:27am
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Personal attacks and name calling will not be tolerated on the discussion board. Some members are a little abrupt in their messages, some may be downright insensitive, and others may just be opinionated old curmudgeons (such as yours truly), but the moderators will not permit vitriolic disrespect. In other words, play nice or find another playground.
No posts have been deleted or edited, I leave it up to the authors of previous messages to do the right thing.
Bobby Barnhart
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
19 Feb 2015
07:49:57am
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
As mentioned previously, very common stamps are often heavily counterfeited, not to fool collectors but for monetary gain similar to counterfeiting currency. See http://www.stampsjoann.net/Counterfeit/Counterfeit-main.html
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
19 Feb 2015
11:25:59am
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Responded to David via PM. Did not mean to implicate him in anything.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Thank you everyone for your responses. I will get it checked out as soon as I set up a pay pal account and post the results here.
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03:10:46pm
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
MDROTH brings up the souvenir sheet where the 3 center appears in a slightly larger format than the original stamps. That is a possibility, but it doesn't look like it is a match. I had not thought about the souvenir sheet.
I put a regular Liberty Series stamp over the 3 center on the souvenir sheet. The entire stamp, perfs included fit inside the stamp on the souvenir sheet. Here is an example of a wet printing 3 cent coil placed on top of the larger stamp on the souvenir sheet.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Hi Everyone;
Today I had bi-lateral ingenial hernia surgery. That means two surgeries, and the procedure was
not lapro-scopic, but open surgery (much more invasive & painful).
I appologize to everyone on this thread and to the moderators Lisa and Bobby. I'll be several
weeks recovering from this, and will try to stay off of this discussion board, or only get on here
AFTER taking my very powerful Barbituate pain meds, so I'll be less of a pain in the neck.
Have a nice weekend everyone, and stay well, and please if you are over 50, be very careful
when lifting. You do not want to go thru this procedure.
slithering off to my cavern....
TuskenRaider
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
19 Feb 2015
06:38:44pm
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Take care of yourself, Ken. Hope you have some good (legal) drugs for the pain. At least you have "stamp therapy" as a fall back to cabin fever while you recuperate.
Bobby
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09:19:10pm
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
To throw in my 2 cents' worth (preferably a mint Scott 73 Jackson from 1861), if you are really worried about the expansion/contraction from changes in temperature or humidity, the worst thing you can do is go to a metal gauge. The gauge just sits there, totally unchanged by humidity and only minimally effected by temperature, and the stamp grows and contracts. On the other hand, a paper gauge, being made from the same material, expands and contracts just like the stamp does and the little dots on the gauge and the perforations on the stamp maintain the same relationship.
Practically speaking, the growth or shrinkage any perf gauge would have to display to reflect a change of even 1/4 of a perf far, far exceeds that of any solid material known to man.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Hi Everyone;
@ dollhaus;
That is an interesting observation about both stamp and gauge being make from the same material.
I have always thought that everyone has made far too much of this 'expanxion/shrinkage' thing.
As I mentioned in an earlier reply, soak stamp in water, and measure with perf gauge, then dry
completely and measure again. Most people would probably be surprised at the results.
Ohhhh these meds sure are goooood.
Just an idea tho....
TuskenRaider
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Metal or plastic or paper perf gauge - whatever. What's AWESOME is another Stamporama member has found something very cool and has shared with us. We are a lucky bunch here and the tradition continues.
A big round of applause and a bit of foot stompin' to Sean for his eagle eyes that caught this perf variety! Nicely done!
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Thank you Philatelia. As an update, Bill Weiss did an online examination and decided it was worth sending in for a bettor look. I will send it out to him tomorrow and post the results here.
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02:57:31am
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Let us know the results.
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Auctions
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
I like your new avatar, Sean (it's all I can add to the conversation, but I have been following it with great interest on multiple fronts)
David
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
21 Feb 2015
01:24:32am
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
I was going to post a note about my concern with shrinkage, but decided to await further results. This cold weather seems to be affecting things even here in Florida. I imagine it must be a real problem in Maine and up-state New York.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Here are the results of a little experiment. These images are of a scott 1057c taken out of a stock book kept around 70 degrees.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
The perfs do not line up perfectly with either 10 or 9.5. Somewhere in between. Now I have immersed the stamp into warm water for 30 minutes and re-measured.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
The stamp has obviously expanded as it soaked up moisture. Keep in mind, the perf gauge, although cardboard, was not exposed to any moisture until the moist stamp was placed on top. I plan to obtain a metal perf gauge and conduct another experiment where I will measure the perfs on a hot, dry Southern California day, then again on a cool, rainy day.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Hi Everyone;
@ seanpashby;
I'm glad to see you experimenting a little bit. It probably won't reveal where this stamp is from,
but you are bound to learn more about this expansion/shrinkage thing than most of the specu-
lators on here, whom I'm sure have not done such experiments.
For sure, you have two different stamps, and the oddball one is not listed in Scott's. After you
get that thing certified you should contact Scott Publishing and inform them of your find. Also
contact Linn's and at the least You will probably have a short article written up about this find.
So I hope you are up for becoming a celebrity, because you may well be one soon.
The member on here that has most recently had some stuff written about her find is of course
none other than Theresa, user name Philatelia.
I think some of the naysayers may be just a bit envious of your find, as I know I am.
Thanks again for sharing with all of us....you're one of us now.
Just a driftin'....
TuskenRaider
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
I heard back from Bill Weiss today. According to his examination, it is an ordinary stamp and I measured the perfs incorrectly. Hmmmmm......
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Hi seanpashby;
I know what I saw and I don't agree with his opinion. Get some other gauges and re-check. Also get
a different expertiser. See if Scott Inc. will give an opinion. Perhaps Linn's has someone on staff with
the expertise. Also Auction houses that specialize in this type of material.
I'm sure that Bill Weiss is very honest and will not purposely mis-lead you. If you send it out to any-
one else, insure for large amount, and send it priority that requires a signature.
There is no way that stamp is a regular issue, as it could be some kind of error. things happen every
day.
here are your two stamps one superimposed on the other, it is obvious they are not the same. One
or the other of them is not regular issue.
Also try to measure the hole sizes, as the fifth one down on the right of the single looks too big. May-
be a reperf? Not sure. If you know a tool maker or machinist, that has access to a shadow graph you
can measure with extreme accuracy. Some magnifying glasses have a flat glass scale that is precision
etched and used to measure very small holes or objects. You might be able to get a set of pin gauges
to work but it would be hard to do that way.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Just recoverin'....
TuskenRaider
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
28 Feb 2015
10:32:21am
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Some experts take the attitude that if they do not have an example in their reference collection the submission must not be genuine, because, after all, how could an average Joe Collector have something that the, the big shot expert, doesn't have ?
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01:09:29pm
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
I have known Bill from back in the StampWants days. He isn't like that. He's a good, down-to-earth guy.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
"I have known Bill from back in the StampWants days. He isn't like that. He's a good, down-to-earth guy"
He also has tools and information most collectors don't have.....
Experts, if any doubt about issuing an absolute, can/will offer a "no opinion"
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Here is my problem with this. When I asked him to explain why the actual paper size and design size are larger than what they should be, he replied he has none, but the perf size is as it should be. If you look at the pictures, and he is correct, then every other copy of this stamp I have, the perfs are smaller than they should be. I am surely not an expert, but you don't have to be to know..."One of these things is not like the others". I was not looking to be the owner of a valuable stamp, I just wanted to know what it is to satisfy my own curiosity.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
I understand Sean....
IMHO.... The over-all size difference between stamps, I believe is the way they were cut (and possibly scissor cut in addition).
You stated the paper is thicker on the stamp in question, that will affect the shrinkage rate. When stamps of that era were produced, the paper was moistened, sometimes not to an exact spec....
Even the "DRY" vs wet printing is a misnomer, the dry printing was done with less of a moisture content but the paper was still wet....
There are many factors determing the final product, two being the time span between print and perforation.
Trust me when I tell you I feel your pain....
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Hi Everyone;
@ seanpashby;
I'm sorry for not suggesting this from the beginning, and it would have dissolved a lot of con-
troversy and confusion. Sean, if you send this out again to either Scott, or Linn's or another
stamp appraiser/expert, send the exact same stamps as in your first post and image. There
is clearly a huge question here based on the obvious difference between them. One of them
is not right! So make sure the send the exact two samples you originally showed us.
Also keep up the project of experimentation, you are on the right path. Experiments with well
documented and reported results, will trump casual speculation every time. We will all stand
to gain factual knowledge from your efforts.
Some remarks on here, remind me of a TV ad I recently heard about an over-the-counter health
product. To quote the audio track "Estimates suggest that this product...." I have probably
been guilty of that myself, as it seems to be a common human frailty.
Maybe... they were going for humor....
Struttin' back to cave....
TuskenRaider
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03:55:33pm
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Ken, my comment was not in reference to yours. It was to the one above my reply. Sorry you took it as addressing your comment. It wasn't.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Hi Michael;
I got it, I see your point, sorry, it seems folks like to speculate more than quote facts. Kinda
like "estimates suggest that this product....".
We sometimes like to join in a discussion even if we have no factual knowledge of the topic.
Just a human trait. The trick is to ignore the speculation instead of attacking the speculators.
Then Lisa will not have to come in and break up the barroom brawl.
Just Saturdayin' out....
TuskenRaider
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
My concern with this discussion, particularly the comparison of the stamp images, is that it appears to be based on a photo of the stamps in question (I could be wrong I suppose). A comparison of the stamps should be made from a single scanned image on black background preferably at the highest resolution possible, e.g., 1200 DPI. The single image should include all three stamps. Only then can a reasonable assessment of the images be made.
(Edit: I think I missed what appears to be the scanned image in the thread. Sorry. My opinion is its close enough. Meaning this. When measured with objectivity, the perfs will be closest to 10 than 9.5 or near enough. That they don't match exactly the other stamps is a non-issue.)
Further, I would take Bill Weiss' opinion to heart, given his reputation. I assume you paid for a $5 quick ID. If you want a cert, pay the $35-$40, but I'm sure the result will be the same.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Another thing that can be learned by aligning the left and right side perfs of the questionable stamp is that this stamps perfs do not match itself. That is the right side and left side do not measure exactly the same.
I also see that in most of the images posted showing the stamp being measured, there are problems with the measurement. In one case the stamp is slightly rotated to the perf gauge. In another case the control stamp (the pair) is set so that the middle perfs are aligned with the gauge and then compared to the target stamp, which is measured with the top perf aligned with the gauge.
So here are my observations:
- Stamps not measured consistently or correctly
- Target stamps left edge perfs are a different gauge than the right
- Comparison stamps (the pair) may not even be the same type (are they a different printing, wet vs dry, small hole vs large?)
- The stamps in question were issued over a long duration (many years)
- An expert was consulted and the conclusion was they measure perf 10
From this I think its reasonable to conclude either the perfs on the right may be the result of damange or altered for some reason OR its close enough for reasonable purposes, given the duration of this issue.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Hi Everyone;
HungaryForStamps said;
"Another thing that can be learned by aligning the left and right side perfs of the questionable
stamp is that this stamps perfs do not match itself. That is the right side and left side do not
measure exactly the same.
- Target stamps left edge perfs are a different gauge than the right"
Just so we are on the same page;
We are talking about the used single, in the very first scan at the top of this thread, correct?
Okay, on the right side, count 11 complete holes and two half-holes above and below just on the
edge of the stamp. Next, on the left side count 11 holes and two half-holes above and just below
also on the edge of the stamp. Now in what universe do they not measure the same?
He was trying to be funny right?
Just thinkin'
TuskenRaider
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
The perf size of the used stamp was only a small part of the question. Look at the second image in this thread, where the used stamp is laying on top of the pair. Look at the size of the paper and the size of the printed image. I have hundreds of coil stamps from this series, not just the 3 cent. They are all very close to the same size, both paper and image. I have not been able to find one that is this much larger, hence why I started this post. The perf measurement was only a small part of the question and it seems to be the only thing anyone is concerned about, including Mr. Weiss. Does anyone have one in their collection that resembles that stamp? Ignore the perfs please.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Hi Everyone;
Hey Sean, you are spot on, that is bigger, and I don't need a shadow graph, electron microscope,
nor a micrometer to tell, either.
I'll check some of mine next chance I get and let you know my results.
Just wonderin'....
TuskenRaider
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
I am in no way disagreeing with you. I came here because I have no idea what this is or what caused it to become what it is, and was hoping to be enlightened. Assuming that everyone's theory of expansion is correct, then theoretically, one should be able to "grow" or stretch a flat plate printed stamp into a rotary printed stamp. That is what you are saying is it not? That should raise a whole new set of speculation, especially where Washington/Franklins are concerned. In that second image above, the stamp is laying on top of the pair and imaged together.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Hi Everyone;
@ seanpashby;
Have you contacted the APS for their opinions or does Bill Weiss, represent the APS?
Just curious.
I don't know if is possible to stretch a stamp and not have the ink crack in some places!
Also I have found a number of over-sized Machins recently, but I believe that the Royal
Post uses different printers, and that probably explains the differences. They definitely
were not stretched, as the inks used to print them is very prone to cracking when flexed
too much as in creasing.
I found it interesting that Bill Weiss did not have an explanation of the size difference,
nor about the thickness of the paper!
Very interesting Mystery, Sean! Keep us posted.
Just stayin' in the shadows....
TuskenRaider
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Such a long life this thread has! Well, since it's still here, and the question is still unresolved, I'll add my penny.
I took the liberty (great pun, eh?) of doing some image manipulation, lining up the perf holes of the stamp in question with the coil pair that it is being compared to. It's curious that no one else has done that, although the difference in the two stamps is obvious without any "special effort". Here's the result:
My conclusion: The stamp on the left is not like the stamp on the right!
Bob
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Thank you Bob! That is all I have been trying to say all along. As I said earlier, I have hundreds of coils stamps from this series as this is my "Flyspeck area". They all match up pretty well against that coil pair in size and perforation except for this one used stamp. It's starting to make me crazy....well, more crazy at least. I am hoping someone can come up with others. A "stretched stamp" would provide an answer if it is possible.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Sorry, I was wrong about the left and right of the stamp being a different gauge. I mistook Tuskan Raiders image for a scan and compared left and right using that and there were slight differences. But the count is the same.
What might be helpful (at least in future discussions like this) is to post a scan and not a photo, and base image comparisons on scans. Photos can distort the underlying stamps depending on angle etc. A scan is way more accurate. Though I believe there is a size difference here (both vertically and horizontally - has the OP confirmed horizontal size difference?).
I still think this is a non-issue that could be chalked up to the type of paper used and how much the paper shrank when drying or some other affect over its lifetime. As has already been mentioned the Liberty series has gotten a lot of attention over the years. If you want some very expert advice on this particular question, post the question over on SCF in the appropriate forum, using a SCAN.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Yeah, I see he already did.
Well, shrinkage with wet printings can vary quite a bit and the amount depends on many factors including paper. That's the best explanation I can think of.
Also, just a comment on TuskenRaider's last post: you can't expect that a $5 quick ID from an expert is going to include an explanation of anything, including shrinkage and paper thickness (not sure you would get that with a cert either).
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
I do not have a scanner unfortunately. I was entertaining the paper expansion/shrinkage idea for a while until I experimented with repeatedly soaking, compressing and drying of similar stamps. That experiment showed insignificant size difference. As you can see in the first two images in this post, there is quite a significant difference. The plan is to continue to show it to any dealer, expert, collector I come across, hoping that eventually someone will have a definitive answer, or even better, more examples and an answer. If anyone knows of any literature written on this series or the Bureau in general of that time period, I would appreciate a nudge in the right direction. What started as a mild curiosity has turned into a need of an answer.
Thank you all,
Sean
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Hi Everyone;
I agree Sean. Please find an answer, before we all go nuts or think we have.
HungaryForStamps is correct about scanner accuracy. The plane that the CCD (charge-coupled detector)
is in is fixed, and the glass bed of the scanner is also in a fixed plane. These two planes are perfectly
parallel to a very high degree of accuracy.
Using a camera, the user has to adjust the camera in an attempt to match the camera's CCD plane, with
the plane that the stamp surface exists in. Nearly impossible. You can get close, but it will produce some
degree of distortion tho. And if the camera is a cell phone you might as well draw a picture. Cel phones
are only good for selfies!
Just chillin' out....
TuskenRaider
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
05 Mar 2015
01:16:03pm
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Perhaps I missed something here but is it not possible that after the roll of sheets were fed into the cutter that created the strips which became rolls of coil stamps, one cutter (Wheel ???) for some reason was set a bit further from the adjoining cutter ? (Cutters ?)
I am not sure exactly how the cutters are installed but the pins that are used to make perforations sometimes break and are replaced ? Could there have been a repair that allowed for some inadvertent variation ?
If this has been already considered and I missed it being dismissed, or explained, just forget I suggested the idea
I am thinking that sharp cutting wheels are assembled on a shaft with a number of shims in between;
Cutter - ten shims - Cutter - ten shims - Cutter - ten shims - Cutter - ten shims - Cutter -eleven shims Cutter
That would explain the gross size difference and any other minor variations would be the result of paper thickness or moisture content.
And if so, there ought to be a few similar "tall" examples residing in a collection or an old shoebox where thousands of common stamps often are consigned just waiting for some clever devils to "flyspeck" that issue more thoroughly.
I have a box in the closet with similar common stamps all bundled in packs of 100 or 200 apiece that haven't seen the light of day in forty years.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Hi cdj1122;
It is the size of the actual IMAGE that is in question. Sean has already stated that he soaked
these stamps until very wet and measured them. I have also done the same experiment, with
regards to the size of the image on the paper. The amount of expansion was so small that it
is barely measurable.
Many members commenting on here are well aware that paper expands when wet, but most
have not bothered to research by how much is the expansion factor nor done any experiments
to discover how much growth occurs.
I have done some research. Research that revealed that paper fibers grow in diameter much
more than length. Which means that paper when wet will grow much more in thickness than in
length or width.
Also in question is the obvious difference in perforation on the subject stamp. This HAS been
checked by some members on here by over-laying one image onto another. Most of the rest
are just speculating as to what is different with the subject stamp.
In any event, I'm very thankful for this thread and for Sean posting it. We will eventually ALL,
including myself, learn a lot more about fly specking these weird stamps, for which we can find
no reasonable explanation.
For now I'll call this one a UFO (unidentified found object). Just don't tell the US Air Force about
this or we'll all up being held captive in area 59, Roswell New Mexico!
Just chillin'....
TuskenRaider
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Have you thought about contacting someone at Linn's Stamp magazine? Frequently they will inspect / publish stamps that are unusual or difficult to identify and either offer an opinion or ask for reader's input. May not help, but you never know.
Also, in the Feb 2, 2015 issue of Linn's is an article by William Weiss about his life and how he came to be an expertizer. It was interesting, especially after following this discussion....
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
I think for now I am going to do some footwork and more research. If I can't find anyone with similar copies, then I may pursue that course of action. I am finding that sources of literature on this series is not easy to find. There are several books, but all are out of publication and not easy to find.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Might I suggest contacting the American Philatelic Research Library, assuming you are a member of APS. I've found the staff there to be exceptionally helpful.
Bob
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
I finally have an answer to this mystery. I sent the stamp to Ken Lawrence and this is what he says it is:
Hi Sean,
If you look at the edge of your stamp under a microscope, you'll see that it is double thickness. Some collectors call this "double paper" and try to separate a part of the top layer and fold it back to show the effect, but it can destroy the stamp if the two layers are strongly fused together.
It's really a splice -- a mill splice, where one web end is spliced to the next at the paper mill before the web is finished and dried, not a press splice at the printer. Because the paper is double thickness, it doesn't shrink much after printing. On a normal intaglio print, as the paper dries it shrinks perpendicular to the grain, which on horizontal coil stamps is in the vertical dimension.
In this case, the double thickness prevented normal shrinkage, leaving the printed image taller than on a normal coil print.
Best regards,
Ken
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Uh-oh. Somebody said something who actually knows something. Fun's over!
And, speaking of fun:
"... It takes many years to train a good agent ... [T]hey must never act oddly in any way. Russia built exact replicas of US towns to give agents a more realistic form of training ..."
And I thought that this was just the coolest plot line ever devised by Nelson B DeMille! They really built those towns?
"... The US currency purchased on the black market was given to agents, so they would have real money to spend ... The stamps were another matter however, as nobody would look twice at a stamp to see if it was a fake."
There's nothing suspicious about a foreigner flying into America with a roll of 3c stamps in his luggage?
I'm thinking that returning Russian diplomats & tourists could bring back a roll of stamps easily & anonymously enough, were they really worried about their spies calling attention to themselves by, say, visiting a post office to mail a letter.
"Remember, Comrade, your first stop must be Nassau Street, to buy mint never-hinged postage ... be sure to check the gum ..."
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Hi all;
@ ikeyPikey;
Hey, don't send Sydney Greenstreet, and Peter Lorre packing just yet. There is plenty of mystery
here yet. I have to conclude this is a counterfeit, as there are too many things wrong with this
stamp. The image is too big and the overall size of the stamp is too big, and the perforations are
wrong.
@ seanpashby;
Altho Ken Lawrence is probably very knowledgeable, one simple thing has been overlooked. Per-
forations and slitting of sheets into strips would have to be done after the printing and drying.
Perforation holes would not be clean is paper is still wet. If this over-sized stamp were dried and
then perforated, it would have the same hole spacing as all the other stamps from that print run.
This I believe makes this stamp a counterfeit, altho not a very good one if they got so many things
wrong. However I would like to thank seanpashby, and everyone else who replied here for making
this the most fun thread I've ever read on here!
Just Chillin'....
TuskenRaider
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Ken Lawrence is considered to be a most respected and knowledgeable person at the expert level. I have followed his writings and general career for many years. If he has rendered an opinion, you can take it to the bank.
Dan C.
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
11 Nov 2015
10:00:16am
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
I agree with Dan. Ken Lawrence is one of the most respected philatelists around, and especially with respect to issues of the USA.
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10:42:36am
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
I'll grant that about Ken Lawrence, but he has a large ego, and is very territorial over being an "expert". When asked about getting more stamp collectors involved in expertization, his comment was, "We have plenty of experts now. We don't need any more." So much for getting more people involved in other facets of the hobby. Oh, yes, he said that to me just a couple of months ago.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
I understand Mr Lawrence's point to be that all stamps shrink, but that the stamp-on-a-join did not shrink.
{Page-Up}, re-read?
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
PS: A rule against insulting personal comments should not be taken to apply only to subscribers.
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Although I continued to read, I stayed out of posting in this thread after my initial post because I wasn't interested in getting into a "tit for tat" with another member in this thread.
As Ken Lawrence stated, this is a genuine example of a mill splice, and would be considered an EFO.
There are so many incorrect or misleading statements and suggestions regarding wet/dry paper, resulting from a misunderstanding of the wet/dry printing process, that I would suggest the membership simply ignore any information regarding wet/dry paper/printing in this thread other than --
-- It is a well established FACT that machine made paper WILL shrink in the direction perpendicular to the overall grain orientation (as noted by Ken Lawrence). This shrinkage may or may not be measurable, depending on the moisture content of the paper during printing and now, the thickness of the paper, and the amount of grain orientation.
While there are many other correct comments regarding wet/dry paper/printing in this thread, there are also too many incorrect/misleading statements that will only cause the reader to misinterpret other stamps in the future. I would suggest that you view other threads/sources if you want to learn about wet/dry.
Thanks for posting the original pic and question, Sean. Also thanks for posting Ken Lawrence's reply. I'm glad that were finally able to determine it was a mill splice.
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02:08:53am
re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
And that NASA story is a furphy too.
http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp
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re: 3 Cent Liberty Coil Oddity
Good on you, jillcrow!
I had always wondered why capillary action would not suffice, as it should work independently of gravity & vacuum, but had never thought to 'snope it'!
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