Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
As seen in this thread: this thread
SO what am I missing on the following:
I KNOW we don't have precancels in 1624...
and I've got another one marked as
Bruxelles
Tour Et taxis
?5 - Jul - 1421 (Cancel is diagonal, so I don't know what's in front of the 5..
So would someone please remind me what the third number for these are supposed to be? Cause I'm drawing a blank now...
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08:57:48pm
It originates it's transit in Antwerpen Stuyvenberg as shown on top and appears it's destination is Anvers Stuyvenberg according to the bottom. (My error in saying destination - Anvers Stuyvenberg is the same as Antwerpen Stuyvenberg - French and Flemish - where's my head tonight?)
Dec 19 (there's a 1 in front of the 9). The "1524" is 1924. The 15 means it was stamped for transit at 1500 hours - ie 3pm. The railway changed from 12 hour clock to 24 hour clock in March or April 1897 - for the most part but there are still private rails that used the 12 hour clock post 1897.
The cancellation should be roughly 35mm wide and 26mm deep or larger.
Also note that this was used on a State Line not a Private Line.
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08:58:40pm
Scan the other and I'll give you the info.
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I don't have my collection or my reference book here in front of me, but I believe there are some marked with DD-MM-YY-HH format and others with DD-MM-HH-YY format. It gets confusing, especially for those years that overlap with the 24-hour clock. For example, 19-XII-16-24 as you show. 1916? 1924? 1600 hrs (4pm)? 2400 hrs (midnight)? I've had to look at when the stamp was issued to rule out some possibilities.
-Steve
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i've got a ton of them, midear... I knew there was an hour marker in there somewhere, but I couldn't remember where (the stamp set is supposed to be 1923-1940, right?)
March 7th, 1943 at 5 PM??
But that goes against the logic of the HH and then Year..
oops, just noticed Geo's comment just above.. heaven help me on the hh/yy that cross up
PS: Franck, The ImageScan splitter worked like a dream, even with the blue paper on the background.
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09:53:41pm
It depends on the style of cancellation as to how it is dated as well as whether it is private or state line. Plus if it's on document it's possible to include both private AND state line cancellations.
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10:15:56pm
Ok - this cancel is called a Chamfered Rectangle and it was used on State Lines. It was issued in 1941. It's a Private Line and you have the right date - March 7, 1943 5pm - I'm still looking for that transit line though. I haven't found it yet.
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10:23:38pm
Ok - I can't tell by the scan - but from what I can see the only time a Chamfered Rectangle cancellation was used on that stamp was indeed during WWII and it should be a blue cancellation and it is Marloie Station No. 1
** My apologies - it is a State Line NOT Private Line cancellation **
Cancellation may be blue or blue-grey.
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10:38:14pm
If it's a black cancellation - the only explanation is that it was on a waybill that was reweighed during transit. Since you only have the stamp and not the waybill (which is often common since most waybills were destroyed), this is your second option. The waybill would have had a canceller that included the words POIDS RECONNU A', the station name, and a blank space (usually underlined) followed by kilos for the insertion of the weight and the date is often written in the space.
This doesn't seem to fit your stamp though because there is no other wording on the stamp - if there was other writing such as the above it would be a reweighed waybill.
So it appears that it's a colour change on a State Line. I can't find any other reference to Marloie during that time period.
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Wow, Kelly I am in awe of your knowledge of Belgian Rail Parcel Post cancels! I got my copy of Jones just before Christmas and haven't had a chance to really dig into it yet.
Here's a small lot I purchased recently with two stamps called out on the bottom row. Because the hour stamp has to be 24 or less, it is clear that one has the DD-MM-HH-YY format and the other has the DD-MM-YY-HH format.
All part of what makes the Belgian Rails so much fun!
-Steve
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12:20:29am
It *IS* exciting, isn't it? I've got a 1" album that I've put together - somewhere in the search engine you'll find one of my pages I designed.
I couldn't live without my Jones catalogue and there are a lot more that aren't listed in there. The troubles are due to the loss of the waybills - just like those who collect covers but even more so because many cancellations were simply placed on the waybill itself. It's rare to find a pair (to my knowledge but please correct me if I'm wrong) of stamps such as those which are reweighed. The stamps will likely be mismatched but you would then see the correction in transit. Of course you would need these on piece to get the full story.
What's interesting is when they opened the Belgian-German line. I know of people who have attempted to recreate a rail map with each series and cancellation styles. I would love to try that but I don't think my 300+ railways can give me that. Plus unfortunately as you know many times the names are smudged which then makes tracking impossible.
I once considered ending my railway collection with the WWII issues but I love the design on the next set of issues. Then of course you get into the B sets which aren't as exciting. You lose the beauty of the cancellation designs and the beauty of the stamps themselves. I have them in my collection but I really don't have much interest in them. I love the design of the pre-WWII stamps and have some mint issues in there just to appreciate the creative design that went into them. It makes the "real" issues that have been used in transit more exciting because often the cancellation obliterates the design.
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12:29:42am
By the way - you've got a great group there. Even the line cancels. Have you worked on the Private versus State Lines? It can really get confusing but you can usually tell by the stamp and the cancellation - whether the date of issue fits with a particular cancellation style. That's where the waybills are coveted because so many actually traveled on both lines depending on when they were sent and what station because then you can follow whether they started on a State Line and transferred to a Private Line.
One way of knowing whether the origin was cancelled at a postal office or a telegraph office is by time. Postal outlets only operated during the day. Telegraph offices operated 24 hours. Also if I recall correctly the telegraph offices were at rail stations 
Please correct any misinformation as sometimes my memory isn't that great.
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I have a lot of learning to do! One of the nice things about Jones is that he provides listings of the stations on each route, and even provides diagrams for the private lines.
My collection isn't very mature yet... I don't even have an album. Basically just gathering stamps! I've been giving thought to creating pages that have route maps and then spaces for stamps cancelled at each stop along the way. I'm sure I wouldn't be the first to do so. I couldn't find the page you mentioned, but would like to see it. Do you recall if it was in a discussion or an exhibit?
In that set I posted above, the one that caught my eye was the orange 1.10 F with the word "PAID" stamped on there twice. That may be common, but I hadn't seen it before.
-Steve
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Hello,
I have collected Belgium since the 70's & the railways were always my favorite section.
I never really looked into their history.
Question: the "parcel post" and oval B overprints as opposed to the "Chemins de Fer - Spoorwegen" seem to have been questioned as not being proper railway stamps. Does your catalog make any note of this.
I believe that for a time the post office actually had red railway cars maned by postal employees who sorted & delivered mail.
Also I have a fair number of these in different values
Are they proofs? Any value?
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09:52:21am
The PAID one is interesting. I don't believe I've ever seen that - why would it be marked in English?
You've got a couple on there with a double cancel - those could be reweighed waybills, but probably just a high value alongside a low value with the second cancellations tying both on the waybill. It's interesting that the double cancel ones are high value numbers. It would be awesome to see what waybill they were on. Imagine if it's simply more than 9Fr so they had to add extra postage - could be for livestock
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05:09:30pm
Sorry for the delayed response - the "B" stamps signify Officials. There are many "B" stamps that are not Railway Stamps, simply Officials and from what I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong), the "B" Railway Stamps - which do exist indeed, were meant to identify the Parcel Post was on State Lines rather than Private Lines. You couldn't use an official stamp which required postal cancels on Private Lines. Now, I could be wrong because I don't know a lot about the "B" stamps - I like the early "B" Parcel Post.
It's important to remember that during the Railway Stamp era, parcels which included everything from a letter to a cow (seriously, they had special symbols for the waybills that accompanied the item processed when it wasn't a package - i.e. crates, livestock, etc.) could be cancelled at post office outlets or telegraph outlets - the latter being more prominent and being situated at Railway Lines. Yes, I do believe they had specific Rail Cars, although off-hand I can't say that with certainty. The importance of the Railway Stamps and following their journeys included State and Private Lines. Sometimes they would start on one Line and move to another or some stayed only on Private Lines and some on State Lines. The ideal was to eliminate the Private Lines, I believe and I think perhaps that's when the stamps bearing Official on Railway Stamps as well as Parcel Post which came after the Railway Stamps kept the parcels only on Official State Lines.
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05:19:56pm
Your second sample of the 1.10fr is listed in Michel 2010-2011 as issued on January 1st, 1906 in rose, gray and black - there is no indication of imperforate that I can see - only 15.5:14.5.
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05:33:02pm
In relation to the Colis Postal / Postcollo stamps, Michel takes note of them as Parcel Post rather than Railway Stamps. There is only one listing under Parcel Post in Michel that actually includes the Chemin de Fer - Locomotive stamp and that was issued after the 5fr that you show below of the Brussels Post Office.
The note in Michel on Parcel Post states:
In Belgium, parcels were a matter of the railroad. Parcel Post were used only in places with no rail connection and only parcels up to 5kg weight were accepted and delivered by the postal system. (My translation may not be completely accurate, so anyone who can correct me, please do so.)
So, Railway Stamps were still used on parcels over 5kg. Your stamp below was issued on May 21st 1929. Unused Michel 2010-2011 cv is 4.50 euros, used is 0.20 euros.
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The "B" overprinted or printed as part of the design on Belgian definitive stamps are official stamps.
The "B" overprinted or printed as part of the design on Belgian parcel post stamps are parcel post stamps like you said to indicate use on official state lines.
One note from Scott is that starting in 1996 items that look like Belgian parcel post stamps were sold through the Belgian Philatelic Bureau, but are actually charity labels and are not valid for postal use.
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07:14:36pm
Thanks Michael. I don't collect much modern material so that last tidbit is a good piece of info to remember.
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07:39:28pm
Steve - it seems I only showed the album pages before I filled them. It took me a LONG time to find that link!
http://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=5873#60683
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Thanks for finding that link, Kelly! I recall looking over some of those pages and comments back when I first joined SOR. Someday... maybe someday, I'll make my own pages, but I have to agree with the one comment there about the time spent making pages taking away from putting stamps in albums!
-Steve
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But I'm now totally confused. I know the general theory behind the "cancels/pre-cancels' on these are : Day-Month-Year right? SO like 9-XII-1939 = December 9, 1939
As seen in this thread: this thread
SO what am I missing on the following:
I KNOW we don't have precancels in 1624...
and I've got another one marked as
Bruxelles
Tour Et taxis
?5 - Jul - 1421 (Cancel is diagonal, so I don't know what's in front of the 5..
So would someone please remind me what the third number for these are supposed to be? Cause I'm drawing a blank now...
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
09 Feb 2015
08:57:48pm
re: Okay, I know we've had this discussion before on Railway stamps...
It originates it's transit in Antwerpen Stuyvenberg as shown on top and appears it's destination is Anvers Stuyvenberg according to the bottom. (My error in saying destination - Anvers Stuyvenberg is the same as Antwerpen Stuyvenberg - French and Flemish - where's my head tonight?)
Dec 19 (there's a 1 in front of the 9). The "1524" is 1924. The 15 means it was stamped for transit at 1500 hours - ie 3pm. The railway changed from 12 hour clock to 24 hour clock in March or April 1897 - for the most part but there are still private rails that used the 12 hour clock post 1897.
The cancellation should be roughly 35mm wide and 26mm deep or larger.
Also note that this was used on a State Line not a Private Line.
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
09 Feb 2015
08:58:40pm
re: Okay, I know we've had this discussion before on Railway stamps...
Scan the other and I'll give you the info.
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re: Okay, I know we've had this discussion before on Railway stamps...
I don't have my collection or my reference book here in front of me, but I believe there are some marked with DD-MM-YY-HH format and others with DD-MM-HH-YY format. It gets confusing, especially for those years that overlap with the 24-hour clock. For example, 19-XII-16-24 as you show. 1916? 1924? 1600 hrs (4pm)? 2400 hrs (midnight)? I've had to look at when the stamp was issued to rule out some possibilities.
-Steve
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this post
re: Okay, I know we've had this discussion before on Railway stamps...
i've got a ton of them, midear... I knew there was an hour marker in there somewhere, but I couldn't remember where (the stamp set is supposed to be 1923-1940, right?)
March 7th, 1943 at 5 PM??
But that goes against the logic of the HH and then Year..
oops, just noticed Geo's comment just above.. heaven help me on the hh/yy that cross up
PS: Franck, The ImageScan splitter worked like a dream, even with the blue paper on the background.
Login to Like
this post
A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
09 Feb 2015
09:53:41pm
re: Okay, I know we've had this discussion before on Railway stamps...
It depends on the style of cancellation as to how it is dated as well as whether it is private or state line. Plus if it's on document it's possible to include both private AND state line cancellations.
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this post
A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
09 Feb 2015
10:15:56pm
re: Okay, I know we've had this discussion before on Railway stamps...
Ok - this cancel is called a Chamfered Rectangle and it was used on State Lines. It was issued in 1941. It's a Private Line and you have the right date - March 7, 1943 5pm - I'm still looking for that transit line though. I haven't found it yet.
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
09 Feb 2015
10:23:38pm
re: Okay, I know we've had this discussion before on Railway stamps...
Ok - I can't tell by the scan - but from what I can see the only time a Chamfered Rectangle cancellation was used on that stamp was indeed during WWII and it should be a blue cancellation and it is Marloie Station No. 1
** My apologies - it is a State Line NOT Private Line cancellation **
Cancellation may be blue or blue-grey.
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
09 Feb 2015
10:38:14pm
re: Okay, I know we've had this discussion before on Railway stamps...
If it's a black cancellation - the only explanation is that it was on a waybill that was reweighed during transit. Since you only have the stamp and not the waybill (which is often common since most waybills were destroyed), this is your second option. The waybill would have had a canceller that included the words POIDS RECONNU A', the station name, and a blank space (usually underlined) followed by kilos for the insertion of the weight and the date is often written in the space.
This doesn't seem to fit your stamp though because there is no other wording on the stamp - if there was other writing such as the above it would be a reweighed waybill.
So it appears that it's a colour change on a State Line. I can't find any other reference to Marloie during that time period.
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re: Okay, I know we've had this discussion before on Railway stamps...
Wow, Kelly I am in awe of your knowledge of Belgian Rail Parcel Post cancels! I got my copy of Jones just before Christmas and haven't had a chance to really dig into it yet.
Here's a small lot I purchased recently with two stamps called out on the bottom row. Because the hour stamp has to be 24 or less, it is clear that one has the DD-MM-HH-YY format and the other has the DD-MM-YY-HH format.
All part of what makes the Belgian Rails so much fun!
-Steve
Login to Like
this post
A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
10 Feb 2015
12:20:29am
re: Okay, I know we've had this discussion before on Railway stamps...
It *IS* exciting, isn't it? I've got a 1" album that I've put together - somewhere in the search engine you'll find one of my pages I designed.
I couldn't live without my Jones catalogue and there are a lot more that aren't listed in there. The troubles are due to the loss of the waybills - just like those who collect covers but even more so because many cancellations were simply placed on the waybill itself. It's rare to find a pair (to my knowledge but please correct me if I'm wrong) of stamps such as those which are reweighed. The stamps will likely be mismatched but you would then see the correction in transit. Of course you would need these on piece to get the full story.
What's interesting is when they opened the Belgian-German line. I know of people who have attempted to recreate a rail map with each series and cancellation styles. I would love to try that but I don't think my 300+ railways can give me that. Plus unfortunately as you know many times the names are smudged which then makes tracking impossible.
I once considered ending my railway collection with the WWII issues but I love the design on the next set of issues. Then of course you get into the B sets which aren't as exciting. You lose the beauty of the cancellation designs and the beauty of the stamps themselves. I have them in my collection but I really don't have much interest in them. I love the design of the pre-WWII stamps and have some mint issues in there just to appreciate the creative design that went into them. It makes the "real" issues that have been used in transit more exciting because often the cancellation obliterates the design.
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
10 Feb 2015
12:29:42am
re: Okay, I know we've had this discussion before on Railway stamps...
By the way - you've got a great group there. Even the line cancels. Have you worked on the Private versus State Lines? It can really get confusing but you can usually tell by the stamp and the cancellation - whether the date of issue fits with a particular cancellation style. That's where the waybills are coveted because so many actually traveled on both lines depending on when they were sent and what station because then you can follow whether they started on a State Line and transferred to a Private Line.
One way of knowing whether the origin was cancelled at a postal office or a telegraph office is by time. Postal outlets only operated during the day. Telegraph offices operated 24 hours. Also if I recall correctly the telegraph offices were at rail stations
Please correct any misinformation as sometimes my memory isn't that great.
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re: Okay, I know we've had this discussion before on Railway stamps...
I have a lot of learning to do! One of the nice things about Jones is that he provides listings of the stations on each route, and even provides diagrams for the private lines.
My collection isn't very mature yet... I don't even have an album. Basically just gathering stamps! I've been giving thought to creating pages that have route maps and then spaces for stamps cancelled at each stop along the way. I'm sure I wouldn't be the first to do so. I couldn't find the page you mentioned, but would like to see it. Do you recall if it was in a discussion or an exhibit?
In that set I posted above, the one that caught my eye was the orange 1.10 F with the word "PAID" stamped on there twice. That may be common, but I hadn't seen it before.
-Steve
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07:29:30am
re: Okay, I know we've had this discussion before on Railway stamps...
Hello,
I have collected Belgium since the 70's & the railways were always my favorite section.
I never really looked into their history.
Question: the "parcel post" and oval B overprints as opposed to the "Chemins de Fer - Spoorwegen" seem to have been questioned as not being proper railway stamps. Does your catalog make any note of this.
I believe that for a time the post office actually had red railway cars maned by postal employees who sorted & delivered mail.
Also I have a fair number of these in different values
Are they proofs? Any value?
Login to Like
this post
A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
10 Feb 2015
09:52:21am
re: Okay, I know we've had this discussion before on Railway stamps...
The PAID one is interesting. I don't believe I've ever seen that - why would it be marked in English?
You've got a couple on there with a double cancel - those could be reweighed waybills, but probably just a high value alongside a low value with the second cancellations tying both on the waybill. It's interesting that the double cancel ones are high value numbers. It would be awesome to see what waybill they were on. Imagine if it's simply more than 9Fr so they had to add extra postage - could be for livestock
Login to Like
this post
A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
13 Feb 2015
05:09:30pm
re: Okay, I know we've had this discussion before on Railway stamps...
Sorry for the delayed response - the "B" stamps signify Officials. There are many "B" stamps that are not Railway Stamps, simply Officials and from what I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong), the "B" Railway Stamps - which do exist indeed, were meant to identify the Parcel Post was on State Lines rather than Private Lines. You couldn't use an official stamp which required postal cancels on Private Lines. Now, I could be wrong because I don't know a lot about the "B" stamps - I like the early "B" Parcel Post.
It's important to remember that during the Railway Stamp era, parcels which included everything from a letter to a cow (seriously, they had special symbols for the waybills that accompanied the item processed when it wasn't a package - i.e. crates, livestock, etc.) could be cancelled at post office outlets or telegraph outlets - the latter being more prominent and being situated at Railway Lines. Yes, I do believe they had specific Rail Cars, although off-hand I can't say that with certainty. The importance of the Railway Stamps and following their journeys included State and Private Lines. Sometimes they would start on one Line and move to another or some stayed only on Private Lines and some on State Lines. The ideal was to eliminate the Private Lines, I believe and I think perhaps that's when the stamps bearing Official on Railway Stamps as well as Parcel Post which came after the Railway Stamps kept the parcels only on Official State Lines.
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this post
A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
13 Feb 2015
05:19:56pm
re: Okay, I know we've had this discussion before on Railway stamps...
Your second sample of the 1.10fr is listed in Michel 2010-2011 as issued on January 1st, 1906 in rose, gray and black - there is no indication of imperforate that I can see - only 15.5:14.5.
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this post
A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
13 Feb 2015
05:33:02pm
re: Okay, I know we've had this discussion before on Railway stamps...
In relation to the Colis Postal / Postcollo stamps, Michel takes note of them as Parcel Post rather than Railway Stamps. There is only one listing under Parcel Post in Michel that actually includes the Chemin de Fer - Locomotive stamp and that was issued after the 5fr that you show below of the Brussels Post Office.
The note in Michel on Parcel Post states:
In Belgium, parcels were a matter of the railroad. Parcel Post were used only in places with no rail connection and only parcels up to 5kg weight were accepted and delivered by the postal system. (My translation may not be completely accurate, so anyone who can correct me, please do so.)
So, Railway Stamps were still used on parcels over 5kg. Your stamp below was issued on May 21st 1929. Unused Michel 2010-2011 cv is 4.50 euros, used is 0.20 euros.
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05:36:31pm
re: Okay, I know we've had this discussion before on Railway stamps...
The "B" overprinted or printed as part of the design on Belgian definitive stamps are official stamps.
The "B" overprinted or printed as part of the design on Belgian parcel post stamps are parcel post stamps like you said to indicate use on official state lines.
One note from Scott is that starting in 1996 items that look like Belgian parcel post stamps were sold through the Belgian Philatelic Bureau, but are actually charity labels and are not valid for postal use.
Login to Like
this post
A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
13 Feb 2015
07:14:36pm
re: Okay, I know we've had this discussion before on Railway stamps...
Thanks Michael. I don't collect much modern material so that last tidbit is a good piece of info to remember.
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
13 Feb 2015
07:39:28pm
re: Okay, I know we've had this discussion before on Railway stamps...
Steve - it seems I only showed the album pages before I filled them. It took me a LONG time to find that link!
http://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=5873#60683
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re: Okay, I know we've had this discussion before on Railway stamps...
Thanks for finding that link, Kelly! I recall looking over some of those pages and comments back when I first joined SOR. Someday... maybe someday, I'll make my own pages, but I have to agree with the one comment there about the time spent making pages taking away from putting stamps in albums!
-Steve
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