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Europe/Great Britain : GB cover from Regency auction: Cancel anomaly?

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cocollectibles
18 Jan 2015
09:17:28pm
This is a cover from the most recent Regency Superior auction; it went unsold. I've put a close up scan of the left stamp's bottom edge because it seems there is an anomaly here.

Each of the 504 obliterator cancels on the stamps have three lines on the top; for the stamp on the right this cancel ties it to the cover as you can see how the cancel "bleeds over" onto the cover. But on the left stamp, the bars of the obliterator along the bottom perf line do not imprint onto the cover. This might imply the canceled stamp was added to the cover later.

However, the close up of that area shows that the Panama CDS does cross over the pefs on the bottom edge of the left stamp, therefore tying the stamp to the cover.

Anyone else find this strange?

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Webpaper
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18 Jan 2015
09:49:59pm
re: GB cover from Regency auction: Cancel anomaly?

My guess would be that when the left 504 was struck more pressure was applied to the right side of the "stamp" handle slightly lifting the left side so it didn't hit the envelope. You see it quite often on older covers (US banknotes for example). If the postmaster was right handed it's a natural motion - pick up an object and pretend to cancel something - you'll note the natural tendency of the wrist to twist as you are moving downward.

Nice cover by the way - what was the suggested bid ?

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cocollectibles
19 Jan 2015
09:15:34am
re: GB cover from Regency auction: Cancel anomaly?

I believe it was $170 with a 20% buyer's premium. It is no longer for sale as an "unsold" (no, I didn't buy it).

Your thoughts on the strike make sense to me. Thanks.

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michael78651
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SOR Auctioneer
19 Jan 2015
12:23:07pm
re: GB cover from Regency auction: Cancel anomaly?

I would expect to see more of the bars at the bottom of the cancel to appear on the cover, and some more of the lines on the left to appear as well like the stamp on the right. The cancel is struck heavy towards the right, however. Also, the delivery address is "Lima". Would there be a Peru receiving cancel on the reverse? Why the Panama cancel?

One thing to do would be to compare the two cancels. Since the same canceler would be presumed to have been used, the cancels should have the same appearance. If say the stamp on the left was added to the cover later, the cancel characteristics would be different from the cancel on the stamp on the right.

I don't know, it may be genuine, and I see Webpaper's point, but it does look suspicious. Evidently by it not selling, others may have had concerns about it as well. Would want a cert to be sure, though.

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cocollectibles
19 Jan 2015
04:40:19pm
re: GB cover from Regency auction: Cancel anomaly?

That was my original feeling too, Michael.

Correction to my earlier post about the availability of this item: It is still in the Unsold listing as of a few minutes ago, asking $100 with a 20% buyer's premium.

Here is the link:

GREAT BRITAIN 42 1862 VICTORIA 1sh GREEN PAIR LOT337569

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19 Jan 2015
04:52:20pm
re: GB cover from Regency auction: Cancel anomaly?

On the other hand it is a vertical pair and the right (top) stamp is pretty convincingly tied to the cover. If you had the actual cover a quick check with a UV lamp would highlight if the ink type is consistent from right (top) stamp to where it appears tied to cover.

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Ningpo
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19 Jan 2015
05:13:21pm
re: GB cover from Regency auction: Cancel anomaly?

I think the cover travelled to Panama, docking on the Atlantic side and then by land to the Pacific side. I guess from there it continued by ship to Lima. I have seen a cover from Bordeaux which took five weeks to Lima via Panama that was posted about a month before. This one here took three weeks just to Panama.

There are some peculiarities on this cover. But I'll limit my observations to these:

Assuming that the notation atop the envelope says 'Per West Indian Mail' What are the black marks visible through the perf holes between the two stamps?

I am not totally convinced the way the right hand cancel supposedly ties this either. It is also curious that there are numerous differences in the formation of the numbers and bars. Was this normal for two strikes applied one second apart? And yes I have noted what others have said about different pressure etc.

Perhaps I'm trying too hard to find fault!

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michael78651
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SOR Auctioneer
19 Jan 2015
06:21:16pm
re: GB cover from Regency auction: Cancel anomaly?

You're right. I couldn't see the stamps as pairs. So much for my eyes on a monitor... It looked like the stamps were overlayed top on bottom. I guess being off-center that much also didn't help me seeing that. I can definitely see that with Ningpo's scan.

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Bobstamp
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19 Jan 2015
06:43:44pm
re: GB cover from Regency auction: Cancel anomaly?


I took the liberty of overlaying the stamp on the right with the one on the left. I don't see any significant difference in the cancellation impressions. I think that any differences can be explained by differing angles and strength of impact of the cancellation hammer, and perhaps even the quantity of ink.

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Bob



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malcolm197
21 Jan 2015
07:54:54am
re: GB cover from Regency auction: Cancel anomaly?

Couple of things to add.

1. It is a genuine vertical pair.- check letters tally. There is no overlap it is a misperf.

2. 504 is the correct numeral cancel for Mansfield.

So far the cover is probably genuine. You need to check that the rate is correct.There may not be any further transit marks. The Panama stamp probably is the receiving mark for the packet station ( Post Office Packet boats normally departed Falmouth) - and from then on the normal South American post system would be used.Note that Panama was at that time part of Colombia ( I think).

On balance I think that the cover is probably genuine - however it has much less value than an outward bound cover from Panama to the UK with British stamps

Please note I am not an expert on the subject - but it is a supposition based on the odd bits of information one picks up along the way!

Malcolm

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cocollectibles
21 Jan 2015
12:21:34pm
re: GB cover from Regency auction: Cancel anomaly?

A couple of folks have asked about the back; here is the auction description.

Quote:

"Folded letter cover franked with vertical pair 'S-F/T-F' Victoria 1sh Scott #42 plate #1 (SG #72) tied by 2 '504' grid cancels, to Lima, Peru from Mansfield, England (Sept 16, 1864 cds) with 'Per India Mail ...' in script, thru London (Sept 17, 1864 red cds on back) via Panama (Oct 9, 1846 cds on front), and Lima Oct 18, 1964 receiving on back. Scott Catalog value for single #42 on cover $450 (SG Catalog £425). Pair with 2 clear margins, touching to in at right & in at bottom. Fine to very fine"

.

Without getting into a discussion of CV versus other value, is this worth $100? I'm still not so sure.
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Bobstamp
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21 Jan 2015
12:47:10pm
re: GB cover from Regency auction: Cancel anomaly?

Value, of course, is subjective, but in the case of this cover, which certainly looks to be genuine, I don't think that $100 is an unrealistic price at all. I routinely pay between $12 and $30 for rather ordinary mid-20th-Century covers, and sometimes much more for better items. It's useful to remember that covers such as the one you're considering here are probably one-of-a-kind. They just aren't making any more! In the end, it comes down to how much you want it for the price offered. Try to imagine how you'll feel if someone else buys it.

Bob

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
21 Jan 2015
01:56:59pm

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re: GB cover from Regency auction: Cancel anomaly?

i'm definitely with Bob. A single on cover at $450; here's a pair to a rather interesting destination with nice Panama transit mark. I might wish the cancel tied the stamp(s) better. But I'd pay $100 for a cover that, at a minimum, should be VALUED at $900, if that were a collecting interest.

a caveat, though, at least here in the States, I find early GB to be horribly overvalued in terms of what I can sell it for. I only have experienced with used stamps, so I don't know if the on-cover price differentials suffer also, but I seldom get anywhere near 11% of CV on used, so MAYBE the 11% of CV price you're entertaining MIGHT be high. But maybe that only points to the catalogues being way out of sync with the market. Phew, did I say all that?

Bottom line: it's a nice cover

David

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cocollectibles
21 Jan 2015
06:11:29pm
re: GB cover from Regency auction: Cancel anomaly?

Thanks to all who participated in this very interesting discussion.

Cheers,
Peter

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malcolm197
22 Jan 2015
06:10:34am
re: GB cover from Regency auction: Cancel anomaly?

Just another caveat. The main market for GB material is of course here. However I am not sure just how many GB used abroad collectors there are. For a new collector to amass any sort of representative collection ( apart from stamps with loose "abroad" cancellations lurking in GB collections) requires VERY deep pockets - and I am not sure there are many collectors with such deep pockets.

Although I stated that the value is likely to be more for stamps with "abroad" cancellations inward bound to the UK (on GB stamps), it is probably the case that outward bound covers are scarcer - as they were probably not so keenly collected back in the day...

Malcolm

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