Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
My wife and I often watch Antiques Roadshow, both the American and the British versions. Many items that are evaluated — rugs, paintings, prints, sculptures, furniture, ceramics, etc. — would be worth much more, according to the experts, if they were repaired. So, why is it not OK to repair stamps and covers?
Conversly, normal wear, such as a "lovely patina," especially on furniture, is often considered to enhance value. Such items should never be refurbished, according to the evaluators. So why don't old stamps that have survived the slings and arrows of a long life increase in value over their younger-appearing brethren? Curious minds want to know.
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Bob in my mind, a "lovely patina" for a stamp would be a beautiful cancel. The stamp itself has bright original colors, and the cancel is sharp, bold, and interesting. That stamp goes in my album. It's mint cousin that does not share its history or markings, has not achieved veteran status and is of lesser value to me. I'm always on the lookout for attractive (and real) cancels to replace the banality of the unused stamps in my albums.
Steve
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@Geostamper,
I agree! I collect used stamps if they have great cancellations, and mint stamps to use as illustrations for my web pages, assuming that the subject of the stamp is what I'm writing about. But what would be wrong about, say, repairing a pulled perf on an otherwise great cancelled stamp? Or repairing a thin on the same stamp? Stamp collectors generally frown on such repairs, and I don't really understand why, when other "old things" are regularly repaired to add to their value. A beautifully restored antique car is worth far more than the same car before restoration. Why can't we "restore" stamps without tainting their provenance? I'm an "old thing" that's been repaired many times, and my wife thinks I'm better than ever! 
Bob
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Another point to make re.antiques. The perfect you strive for possibly does not exist The value is always measured against the best known.
Many public bodies with antiques in their collection now have a policy of conservation (arresting further deterioration) rather than going for restoration. However it is acceptable to restore mechanical things to working order when "broken".Cars,commercial vehicles and other transport seem to be the exception where "Concours" condition is still the objective with most owners.
Here in the UK the National Trust which is a charity which is responsible for many notable historic buildings and stretches of countryside have a couple of properties which over the centuries have had their inhabitants systematically retreat into an ever smaller part of the house for financial or other reasons - and they have made the conscious decision to leave as is to illustrate this.
To return to stamps I think it acceptable for a museum to "repair" a stamp for illustration purposes - as it is never going to return to private hands, but a collector should not indulge. I do keep slightly damaged stamps, but only until a better copy arrives then I ruthlessly destroy it - and I have damaged stamps in my postmark collection -provided the postmark is good !
Malcolm
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Hi Bob
The question is why do we not repair damaged stamps. Put simply, misleading the buyer. An unused stamp has a catalog value say $250. you regum it, not listed as MNH the catalog value is now $1500. As with antiques repairing it or cleaning (coins) them they lose value. Most antiques you can tell the have been repaired or cleaned, however repairing stamps there is only one reason a person would do it MONEY.
Our hobbies should be about enjoyment. and yes I enjoy antique road show. My grandchildern have also hooked my on Pawn Stars.
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Excellent answers here! Great thread.
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Macravenmade said,
"As with antiques repairing it or cleaning (coins) them they lose value."
Time and time again, the professionals on Antiques Road Show recommend cleaning and/or repair of antiques. I don't think they'd do that if value would be lost. In fact, they always suggest cleaning/repair of antiques in order to increase value.
I think that repairing of faulty stamps would be a good thing in that the finite quantity of any stamp would be preserved for a longer period of time. As it is, many of our cherished collectibles will crumble to dust eventually, perhaps after we ourselves have crumbled to dust, but there will come a time when people who'd like to see and work with stamps from the 1800s won't be able to. I know, it's a pie-in-the-sky idea, but it would be nice to think that those stamps would be around for our great-grandchildren and far beyond.
Bob
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NEVER clean a coin unless you are properly trained as to what can, and cannot, be done. Cleaning a coin is about as foolish as soaking the gum off of a mint stamp to remove a tiny hinge remnant.
Lars
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Going back to "Antiques Road Show" ( UK version ) my understanding on repair etc is -
1st choice perfect or very good unrepaired,unrestored condition
2nd choice Restored/repaired/cleaned.
3rd choice original but damaged condition.
Except for generally very valuable/rare items, 3rd choice plus cost of restoration is inevitably more than 2nd choice value ( sometimes considerably more), and 2nd choice will never equal first choice.
We have had on UK TV an "offshoot" of the Roadshow which actually had restoration experts who advised people, and were able to tailor the amount of restoration to maximise the increased value with the minimum cost to them.
Like stamps some antique objects are so rare that condition does not enter into the equation at all! Some quite "tatty" objects have astronomical values -it's all down to survival rates!
Malcolm
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"NEVER clean a coin unless you are properly trained as to what can, and cannot, be done. Cleaning a coin is about as foolish as soaking the gum off of a mint stamp to remove a tiny hinge remnant.
"
That is all 10 commandments of coin collecting in one statement.
For repairing antiques, you can do that to keep some value, but you really have to use original parts cannibalized from the same item that is sacrificed to make one who item. Manufacturing a part that looks like the original part that has no replacement works, but does devalue the item. Changing how something looks, like painting an old oil drum a different color thus covering up the brand name on the drum zeroes out the value.
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Hi Everyone;
I have been told by many collectors that cleaning a coin is fine if it is a common one
like a contemporary Lincoln Penny. They will never have any value, other than
"melt value". They are just a space filler in someone's collection. However wheat
pennies of any year should always be left as-is, they will all increase in value eventually.
Keep on Coinin'....
TuskenRaider
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There is nothing wrong with repairing a stamp. Offering a repaired stamp for sale without disclosing that fact would be unethical. But, those are two entirely different things, sometimes linked by the same motivation, but not necessarily.
Further, money is not the only motivation. It takes little imagination to think of others. You could maybe argue it's the most likely - that's another issue - but preservation is certainly a legitimate reason. Were there only one or two stamps of a particular issue, it is likely some preservation work would be commended if necessary.
And by the way, restoration work to art has not been limited to cleaning.
A close parallel to stamp restoration would be restoration of rare manuscripts and books.
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Some years ago I bought a book which shows what chemicals to use to repair/clean stamps.It was produced by an American and uses the American names for these chemicals,but I never actually used those processes described since I think it wouldn't be right somehow.
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I agree with you about that. However, I have used water peroxide to remove sufurization from yellow and orange stamps. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, many call it "oxidation", and shows itself by the yellow and orange inks on older stamps turning brown due to air pollution (tobacco smoke, etc.). I don't think that is altering a stamp as it is simply removing a contaminant from the stamp.
It would be nice if there were a decent way to remove foxing, but I don't know of a process for that. I think that would be all right to do too.
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As we seem to be touching on the subject of 'paper' restoration, here's a product that I used to buy from a company called Vera Trinder Ltd in London. Called Ducal's Fox It, it contained the chemical Chloromine T.
This unused packet is now about 25 years old. I have had some success using this; mainly treating old prints and documents. However, the mere mention of this chemical on other online forums (not just about stamps), provokes some very animated and sometimes hostile discussions.
It would seem that the bone of contention is whether it should be used at all. Some conservators maintain that insufficient research has been carried out into the long term effects of the chemical. The implication being that there may be long term damage to the fibres (fibers) of paper, parchment, silk etc.
The problem is that not enough time has passed since this chemical's inception to make a solid judgement based on historical data.
Although the product I have pictured is no longer produced, the chemical Chloromine T is readily available, as it is used to reduce bacteria and parasites in Koi carp pond water.
For those interested, here is a link to a site that tries to explain the problems with removing foxing and mildew:
http://periodfinebindings.typepad.com/removing_foxing_and_milde/
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-02-04 08:23:49)
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Okay...I'll just keep throwing away stamps that have foxing...
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Just browsing and I came across this thread. Good points all, me I love a well cancelled stamp. I collect both mint and cancelled stamps side by side. Since I draw my own pages I can allow for any variation of similar items relating to a particular stamp, such as line pairs, plate blocks, and FDC's. All next to each other on the same page. I usually type a short history about that stamp if space allows for it. I enjoy this aspect of collecting as much as acquiring a new stamp not in my collection. Since I've been collecting since 1947 there is not much missing in my US collection and I've given away most of my world wide as I have no interest in that much collecting. Presentation and the best quality I can get is my primary concern in stamp collecting. It will be passed onto my children as an heirloom, then I won't care what happens to it.
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Another thread triggered this post, so instead of going off on a tangent in that thread, I'll start a new one:
My wife and I often watch Antiques Roadshow, both the American and the British versions. Many items that are evaluated — rugs, paintings, prints, sculptures, furniture, ceramics, etc. — would be worth much more, according to the experts, if they were repaired. So, why is it not OK to repair stamps and covers?
Conversly, normal wear, such as a "lovely patina," especially on furniture, is often considered to enhance value. Such items should never be refurbished, according to the evaluators. So why don't old stamps that have survived the slings and arrows of a long life increase in value over their younger-appearing brethren? Curious minds want to know.
Other
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re: A curious mind wants to know
Bob in my mind, a "lovely patina" for a stamp would be a beautiful cancel. The stamp itself has bright original colors, and the cancel is sharp, bold, and interesting. That stamp goes in my album. It's mint cousin that does not share its history or markings, has not achieved veteran status and is of lesser value to me. I'm always on the lookout for attractive (and real) cancels to replace the banality of the unused stamps in my albums.
Steve
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re: A curious mind wants to know
@Geostamper,
I agree! I collect used stamps if they have great cancellations, and mint stamps to use as illustrations for my web pages, assuming that the subject of the stamp is what I'm writing about. But what would be wrong about, say, repairing a pulled perf on an otherwise great cancelled stamp? Or repairing a thin on the same stamp? Stamp collectors generally frown on such repairs, and I don't really understand why, when other "old things" are regularly repaired to add to their value. A beautifully restored antique car is worth far more than the same car before restoration. Why can't we "restore" stamps without tainting their provenance? I'm an "old thing" that's been repaired many times, and my wife thinks I'm better than ever!
Bob
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12:15:40pm
re: A curious mind wants to know
Another point to make re.antiques. The perfect you strive for possibly does not exist The value is always measured against the best known.
Many public bodies with antiques in their collection now have a policy of conservation (arresting further deterioration) rather than going for restoration. However it is acceptable to restore mechanical things to working order when "broken".Cars,commercial vehicles and other transport seem to be the exception where "Concours" condition is still the objective with most owners.
Here in the UK the National Trust which is a charity which is responsible for many notable historic buildings and stretches of countryside have a couple of properties which over the centuries have had their inhabitants systematically retreat into an ever smaller part of the house for financial or other reasons - and they have made the conscious decision to leave as is to illustrate this.
To return to stamps I think it acceptable for a museum to "repair" a stamp for illustration purposes - as it is never going to return to private hands, but a collector should not indulge. I do keep slightly damaged stamps, but only until a better copy arrives then I ruthlessly destroy it - and I have damaged stamps in my postmark collection -provided the postmark is good !
Malcolm
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01:13:08pm
re: A curious mind wants to know
Hi Bob
The question is why do we not repair damaged stamps. Put simply, misleading the buyer. An unused stamp has a catalog value say $250. you regum it, not listed as MNH the catalog value is now $1500. As with antiques repairing it or cleaning (coins) them they lose value. Most antiques you can tell the have been repaired or cleaned, however repairing stamps there is only one reason a person would do it MONEY.
Our hobbies should be about enjoyment. and yes I enjoy antique road show. My grandchildern have also hooked my on Pawn Stars.
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re: A curious mind wants to know
Excellent answers here! Great thread.
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re: A curious mind wants to know
Macravenmade said,
"As with antiques repairing it or cleaning (coins) them they lose value."
Time and time again, the professionals on Antiques Road Show recommend cleaning and/or repair of antiques. I don't think they'd do that if value would be lost. In fact, they always suggest cleaning/repair of antiques in order to increase value.
I think that repairing of faulty stamps would be a good thing in that the finite quantity of any stamp would be preserved for a longer period of time. As it is, many of our cherished collectibles will crumble to dust eventually, perhaps after we ourselves have crumbled to dust, but there will come a time when people who'd like to see and work with stamps from the 1800s won't be able to. I know, it's a pie-in-the-sky idea, but it would be nice to think that those stamps would be around for our great-grandchildren and far beyond.
Bob
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re: A curious mind wants to know
NEVER clean a coin unless you are properly trained as to what can, and cannot, be done. Cleaning a coin is about as foolish as soaking the gum off of a mint stamp to remove a tiny hinge remnant.
Lars
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10:07:49am
re: A curious mind wants to know
Going back to "Antiques Road Show" ( UK version ) my understanding on repair etc is -
1st choice perfect or very good unrepaired,unrestored condition
2nd choice Restored/repaired/cleaned.
3rd choice original but damaged condition.
Except for generally very valuable/rare items, 3rd choice plus cost of restoration is inevitably more than 2nd choice value ( sometimes considerably more), and 2nd choice will never equal first choice.
We have had on UK TV an "offshoot" of the Roadshow which actually had restoration experts who advised people, and were able to tailor the amount of restoration to maximise the increased value with the minimum cost to them.
Like stamps some antique objects are so rare that condition does not enter into the equation at all! Some quite "tatty" objects have astronomical values -it's all down to survival rates!
Malcolm
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01:01:06am
re: A curious mind wants to know
"NEVER clean a coin unless you are properly trained as to what can, and cannot, be done. Cleaning a coin is about as foolish as soaking the gum off of a mint stamp to remove a tiny hinge remnant.
"
That is all 10 commandments of coin collecting in one statement.
For repairing antiques, you can do that to keep some value, but you really have to use original parts cannibalized from the same item that is sacrificed to make one who item. Manufacturing a part that looks like the original part that has no replacement works, but does devalue the item. Changing how something looks, like painting an old oil drum a different color thus covering up the brand name on the drum zeroes out the value.
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re: A curious mind wants to know
Hi Everyone;
I have been told by many collectors that cleaning a coin is fine if it is a common one
like a contemporary Lincoln Penny. They will never have any value, other than
"melt value". They are just a space filler in someone's collection. However wheat
pennies of any year should always be left as-is, they will all increase in value eventually.
Keep on Coinin'....
TuskenRaider
Login to Like
this post
re: A curious mind wants to know
There is nothing wrong with repairing a stamp. Offering a repaired stamp for sale without disclosing that fact would be unethical. But, those are two entirely different things, sometimes linked by the same motivation, but not necessarily.
Further, money is not the only motivation. It takes little imagination to think of others. You could maybe argue it's the most likely - that's another issue - but preservation is certainly a legitimate reason. Were there only one or two stamps of a particular issue, it is likely some preservation work would be commended if necessary.
And by the way, restoration work to art has not been limited to cleaning.
A close parallel to stamp restoration would be restoration of rare manuscripts and books.
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re: A curious mind wants to know
Some years ago I bought a book which shows what chemicals to use to repair/clean stamps.It was produced by an American and uses the American names for these chemicals,but I never actually used those processes described since I think it wouldn't be right somehow.
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09:18:39pm
re: A curious mind wants to know
I agree with you about that. However, I have used water peroxide to remove sufurization from yellow and orange stamps. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, many call it "oxidation", and shows itself by the yellow and orange inks on older stamps turning brown due to air pollution (tobacco smoke, etc.). I don't think that is altering a stamp as it is simply removing a contaminant from the stamp.
It would be nice if there were a decent way to remove foxing, but I don't know of a process for that. I think that would be all right to do too.
Login to Like
this post
re: A curious mind wants to know
As we seem to be touching on the subject of 'paper' restoration, here's a product that I used to buy from a company called Vera Trinder Ltd in London. Called Ducal's Fox It, it contained the chemical Chloromine T.
This unused packet is now about 25 years old. I have had some success using this; mainly treating old prints and documents. However, the mere mention of this chemical on other online forums (not just about stamps), provokes some very animated and sometimes hostile discussions.
It would seem that the bone of contention is whether it should be used at all. Some conservators maintain that insufficient research has been carried out into the long term effects of the chemical. The implication being that there may be long term damage to the fibres (fibers) of paper, parchment, silk etc.
The problem is that not enough time has passed since this chemical's inception to make a solid judgement based on historical data.
Although the product I have pictured is no longer produced, the chemical Chloromine T is readily available, as it is used to reduce bacteria and parasites in Koi carp pond water.
For those interested, here is a link to a site that tries to explain the problems with removing foxing and mildew:
http://periodfinebindings.typepad.com/removing_foxing_and_milde/
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-02-04 08:23:49)
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10:33:42am
re: A curious mind wants to know
Okay...I'll just keep throwing away stamps that have foxing...
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re: A curious mind wants to know
Just browsing and I came across this thread. Good points all, me I love a well cancelled stamp. I collect both mint and cancelled stamps side by side. Since I draw my own pages I can allow for any variation of similar items relating to a particular stamp, such as line pairs, plate blocks, and FDC's. All next to each other on the same page. I usually type a short history about that stamp if space allows for it. I enjoy this aspect of collecting as much as acquiring a new stamp not in my collection. Since I've been collecting since 1947 there is not much missing in my US collection and I've given away most of my world wide as I have no interest in that much collecting. Presentation and the best quality I can get is my primary concern in stamp collecting. It will be passed onto my children as an heirloom, then I won't care what happens to it.
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